Just 5 trans women in women’s jails - Inside Time article

[IwantToRetire]

The latest figures, from the Offender Equalities Annual Report, related to March 2023. In March 2022 there were 162 trans women in male jails and six in female jails. Trans women who have had their new gender legally recognised with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) are not included in the figures. There were 13 prisoners with GRCs, but the report did not specify whether they were trans women or trans men.

https://insidetime.org/newsround/just-5-trans-women-in-womens-jails/

5 too many.
And I'd like to know how many of the 13 were intact men.

Concerning how few people there are with GRCs there seems to be a disproportionate number of them in jail.

5 men in a women's prison is 5 men too many.

Concerning how few people there are with GRCs there seems to be a disproportionate number of them in jail.

Yes.

"Trans women who have had their new gender legally recognised with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) are not included in the figures"

Those 5 don't even have the GRC. There's an unspecified number on top of those 5, who do have a GRC

Unspecified number of TW I mean.

It's good to get some data.
But the headline is misleading as further in the article is says 6 in England and Wales and 7 in Scotland so I make that 13 men in women's prisons not including any with a GRC.

Disgraceful neglect of the human rights of the female prisoners.

No woman should be subjected to that.

I agree 5 is 5 too many.

Today I was out for lunch and there were two burly blokes in dresses at a table close by. I have no idea if they were transwomen or just blokes who like wearing dresses, but I'd be very unhappy about them being in a loo, changing room or prison with me.

As I've said before on here, if you don't want to go to prison, don't commit a crime with a prison sentence attached to it. It's not something you do accidentally.

5 x the number of women those transwomen have access to.

THAT is the figure we should talk about.

But no let’s focus on the men.

As always.

There were 13 prisoners with GRCs, but the report did not specify whether they were trans women or trans men.

Any number other than zero (and i include in that zero those with a GRC as well) is too high.

I read the article again and think I may have got that wrong. I now read it as this:
March 2022 England and Wales 162 trans identified males in men's prisons and 6 in women's
March 2023 England and Wales 198 and 5
I can't tell which year the 13 grc (but no sex specified) prisoners belong to
March 2023 Scotland 12 in men's and 7 in women's.
My brain is not in the right place for numbers today! Maybe someone more clear headed will come along or chase down the actual report.

Either way, as a previous poster said, it doesn't really measure what the impact on women is.

And begs the question, if in March 2023 there were 210 transwomen in men's prisons, why is there a need for those 12 to be in women's? What difference does the prison service recognise in these two groups of men?

if you don't want to go to prison, don't commit a crime with a prison sentence attached to it.

Or work for the Post Office.

x the number of women those transwomen have access to.

THAT is the figure we should talk about.

Indeed. If those 5 are spread between the 5 largest women's prisons, that's around 2,000 women affected. Even if they are all placed together in the smallest one it's 95 women affected.

Over 100 convictions have been overturned already for those wrongly imprisoned wrt the Post Office scandal, some will be women I'm sure. Of course you can also be in prison on remand before being found not guilty.

Agree this affects every single woman in the female prison a man is housed in-including the staff-many of whom specifically chose to work in a womens prisons because they don't want to have to deal with male inmates...

I looked up the report and copied this bit:

"Of the 268 transgender prisoners:
• 48 were in female prisons, 5 self-identified as transgender female, 41 self-identified
as transgender male. The remaining 2 self-identified as non-binary, in a different
way, or did not provide a response.
• 220 were in male prisons, 198 self-identified as transgender female, 0 self-identified
as transgender male. The remaining 22 self-identified as non-binary, in a different
way, or did not provide a response."

Unsurprisingly all the trans identified women (ignoring grc) were in women's prisons.

The reason for no distinguishing data on the people with a grc is legal. It can't be tracked as they have a right to anonymity. Which seems to me to counter the idea that it is simply a piece of paper which gives peace of mind rather than any meaningful change in rights.

I've worked with a transwoman in a female estate. It really wasn't a problem, she had had bottom surgery and was in prison for a non violent crime, so I think that was an appropriate choice in that instance.

I am very much against transwomen that have committed violent or sexual offences being placed in female estates, and the reality is they are not.

Transmen are never placed in male estates due to the risk to them.

including the staff-many of whom specifically chose to work in a womens prisons because they don't want to have to deal with male inmates...

Very good point. My figures were based on number of inmates, so actual numbers will be considerably higher.

Your post is interesting @RMNofTikTok . Can I ask if you worked in England? I live in Scotland and this is an issue which arose after the placement of Isla Bryson in a female prison.

Also, whose perspective when you say it wasn't a problem? The women who had to shower with a TW in Scotland didn't sound like they shared your rosy view?

And did you ask every single woman incarcerated with the man if it was a problem for them?

How long ago was that, RMN? I sit on TG boards in my prison and we've never cleared a TW to go to a female prison, regardless of surgery.

No male prisoner should be in the female estate. There is simply no justification for it.

I stopped working in female estate just shy of 4 years ago.

Yes I'm in England.