Help me with an argument re adult transwomen please

[plipplops]

I was having a conversation with my sister about why transwomen should be in women's spaces. She's open to the conversations but thinks 'it's complicated'.
I was saying that under no circumstances do I want a bloke in my changing room/toilet/hospital ward/rape crisis centre/sports team.

She works for a large bank and there are a couple of transwomen who work there. They're older, more of the old school transsexual and possibly have a GRC (or would certainly go through the effort of getting one).

She feels that if they have a GRC they should be able to use the ladies loo as having gone through the process of getting a GRC means they're somehow vetted and therefore no safeguarding risk to women. I feel that they just need to go in the mens.

How do you 'be kind' to the genuine gender dysphoric men out there if they would genuinely be distressed by asking to use the ladies loo? Or is it just that you can't be?

My hunch is that you can't be, and sorry but just use the mens, but I'm interested in the other side to the debate?

I mean...

The countries in Europe who used mixed-sex toilets etc don't seem to have an epidemic of sexual assault or anything?
Is that a question? Seeing as you've used a question mark. Anyway, if it's a statement you're going to have to provide some evidence to back up your statement. Come on, it's FWR, not X. Evidence is required.

And they don't have large gender critical communities who made a big fuss about it.
Ha ha ha, really? What other languages can you understand? Because believe me, these conversations are going on in LOTS of other countries. Perhaps you haven't seen/heard them because you don't speak the language.

You're right, you aren't educated much on this.

This is a really bad idea for venues where alcohol is consumed or drugs may be taken. A large number of lives are saved every year by someone seeing an arm or a foot sticking out from under a cubicle door and the victim being rescued by someone climbing over the partition.

This is exactly what has been done in my office following complaints being made by some women in the office about who was using the “female only” toilets, the problem is though that it provides another “option” but their existence doesn’t mean they will be used as anticipated. As I’ve mentioned in our office the existence of the “mixed” toilets hasn’t resolved the problem and those who complained initially are still complaining because the same people are still using the womens. It’s a really hard one to deal with I think! X

Only been to Malmö once but I've lived in Sweden for several years - urban not rurally based - and you're talking bollocks. Yes there's the occasional row of fully enclosed unisex coin-operated cubicles at strain stations. There's also office buildings that only have two or three fully self-contained cubicles because there isn't that many employees. Other than that, it's old-fashioned single-sex toilets with shared sinks. Ditto Paris, aside from some really old-fashioned bars where you have to pass the urinals to get to the toilets. Only ever seen ladies and gents in CPH as well.

So entitled males are just doing whatever they want, despite women asking them not to?

Sort of sums it all up to be honest.

It's all about validation. Remember the hoo-ha a few years ago about the Hampstead swimming lakes? There was a male lake, a female lake and a mixed lake. Where should the trans women go? Common sense would say the mixed lake. Did they? Did they hell? No, they wanted to use the women's lake 'cos validation. Same with the toilets and changing rooms.

I still get the rage when I remember this.
Muslim women, Jewish women and women with no religion but who just wanted to swim with their own sex - all suddenly excluded.
For some mens' validation.

And when the Man Friday group self identified as men to highlight the hypocrisy and entered the male pond, they were of course escorted out by Police....

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/female-campaigners-selfidentify-as-men-to-infiltrate-male-only-pool-at-hampstead-heath-a3850556.html

Well I suppose the thing is you can provide a third option, you could provide 10 options if you wanted to, but as others have mentioned there’s no policing of it and I don’t see how there could be realistically so it just means you provide options and people will continue to choose the one that they see themselves as fitting with.

It means (in the situation of our office at least) that it actually has made no difference whether theres 2 toilet options or 3, or more, because the same people who identified most with the female option still feel they do, and those who identified most with the male option still feel they do.

Nobody has been asked to use or not to use any particular toilet explicitly, that I’m aware of anyway, there were complaints made and management clearly decided that this third option would be a solution, they put it in place and it hasn’t particularly made any difference so it’s now an ongoing complaint. I don’t see really how it will be resolved!

We have the same but our staff handbook also informs us that we are only to use the facilities appropriate to the sex that we were born or to use the single user facilities labelled male/female. We haven't had any problems.

I don’t see really how it will be resolved!

Management could follow the EqA and ensure that they provide single sex toilets.

They know who is male and female.

Dammitall @JanesLittleGirl do you mean your company have shown common sense and got it right? We can't have that!

Unfortunately if you have people who are already taking the piss following their own personal preferences and ignoring the company policy then the company has a fight on their hands, and most companies would probably prefer to bury their heads in the sand and hope it goes away. In the end it may take a bunch of female employees raising formal complaints and then taking a company like @Mrsttcno1 's to court to solve the problem.

It happened when we moved offices from a building with single user loos scattered around the building to a modern building with separate male and female loos and 8 single user loos for disabled staff. We were consulted and agreed on separate male and female that would be single sex, 2 single user loos for anyone and 6 disabled loos.

DadJoke told me on another thread that our arrangements were discriminatory and would out transpeople so I checked with HR today. They feel that he is talking out of his arse.

I haven't read the full thread so forgive me if this has been suggested, but I think women should use the single-user loos where they've been provided. Queue if necessary. Indeed, plan a mass queueing to make a point. Just refuse to act as extras in some man's fantasy.

and leads to GNC women being targeted and harassed

nope. GNC for 50ish years. Regularly called ‘young man‘ when I was younger. Still get called Sir occasionally. By males. Never once been challenged by women in women’s facilities

women know

I am a devout Catholic but I do not want single sex spaces to be predicated on the idea that religious women or those who have a history of sexual assault want them.

Women are entitled to single-sex spaces because it's the law, we want them and there need to be no other reason.

ALL women and girls have the right to single-sex spaces for safety, dignity and privacy and they don't need to justify that in any way.

No man's feelings or ego trump women's rights.

ALL women and girls have the right to single-sex spaces for safety, dignity and privacy and they don't need to justify that in any way.

I agree. We end up having to prove and negotiation the level of acceptable risk in a whole range of different spaces, or to disclose personal experiences or feelings.

When all we need say is that single sex spaces are legal and wanted.

Transwomen who have had hormones etc often tend to be physically weaker than cis-women. It's very normal for transwomen to lose or have unimpressive results when competing in women's sports, despite what the right-wing media will tell you.

🤣🤣🤣

What a ridiculous statement! As my mother used to say " Do you think our heads are buttoned up the back?"

Some kind of discipline needs to be enforced, i'd say. Quietly and privately - but definitely.

It still doesn't rid of us of the problem of mixed sex access corridors........which still create an element of both discomfort and risk for those, especially women and girls, who are using them - especially, as mentioned above in the night time economy.

Single sex works fine - and the most obvious solution is additional third spaces.

Social expectation is powerful. If a 'third space' has been provided, then women pointing out that a third space is available should so the job. Toilets didn't used to be have to be policed. They were self policing. There's no reason why this should not be the case going forward. Women need to once again feel comfortable to voice their displeasure.

If men are determined to access women's spaces when there is a 'third' space especially designed for them, the you can guarantee they have no respect and are immediately suspicious. Once third spaces become standard, then everyone will know that 'women's toilet' means women's toilet.

Ooh, ooh, just saw this on another thread!

www.shewon.org/

You don't see a problem with it so no woman is allowed to have a problem with it for any reason whatsoever? It's not a problem for you so no religious woman is allowed to object? You don't care so victims of rape and abuse don't matter? How very "be kind" of you.

If you're against mixed-sex toilets, I would advise against travelling to Europe btw

Can confirm that I recently spent time in the ultra-liberal Netherlands, travelled round from Amsterdam to Rotterdam and The Hague plus several smaller towns in between, and how many mixed-sex toilets did I see? That would be none.

I lived in Germany for 6 years, Germans are very comfortable with nudity (when they have free choice to be naked in a sauna with members of the opposite sex for example) but all the toilets were always single sex.