Help me with an argument re adult transwomen please

[plipplops]

I was having a conversation with my sister about why transwomen should be in women's spaces. She's open to the conversations but thinks 'it's complicated'.
I was saying that under no circumstances do I want a bloke in my changing room/toilet/hospital ward/rape crisis centre/sports team.

She works for a large bank and there are a couple of transwomen who work there. They're older, more of the old school transsexual and possibly have a GRC (or would certainly go through the effort of getting one).

She feels that if they have a GRC they should be able to use the ladies loo as having gone through the process of getting a GRC means they're somehow vetted and therefore no safeguarding risk to women. I feel that they just need to go in the mens.

How do you 'be kind' to the genuine gender dysphoric men out there if they would genuinely be distressed by asking to use the ladies loo? Or is it just that you can't be?

My hunch is that you can't be, and sorry but just use the mens, but I'm interested in the other side to the debate?

If you're against mixed-sex toilets, I would advise against travelling to Europe btw

I wouldn't. Hats always trotted out but Europe's a very big and culturally mixed place, and very few parts of it have mixed sex loos or changing rooms.

My own response js simply that I prioritise myself and my needs (and by extension those of other women) over the feelings of a man who says he is a woman and if that’s “unkind” I don’t really care.

‘Undemanding’ except they turned the women’s toilets into mixed sex toilet - did they ask all the women whether they were ok with the removal of single sex facilities? Would they have felt able to say ‘no’ if they didn’t want it? Were the men’s toilets also mixed sex or did the company leave them as single sex?

I think this is a really honest answer, and I think actually this is the case for most people (whether they would openly admit to it or not).

Not many people think about a bigger picture, people just think about their own wants and needs and prioritise those, they don’t care if that is unkind or inconveniences/hurts others and I suppose thats where these kind of clashes ultimately come from.

I don’t honestly know that there is a compromise that would make everybody happy in situations like this because they are situations which lots of people have truly visceral reactions to, that there isn’t really room for give & take.

Can you explain who isn’t happy with this set up and why? Interested to know what the objections are.

Some will be unhappy with this set up as they don’t want to use unisex, they want to use the women’s.

The obvious solution is third 'gender neutral' spaces, and services, for those that don't feel comfortable using the facilities designed for their own sex.

www.facebook.com/share/v/1uYH35T8b7JcSuzF/?mibextid=WC7FNe

The group of women who initially made the complaints are the main ones who are still unhappy with this set up. Mainly because in practice, it hasn’t changed the reality of what they perceive to be the problem.

The third option toilets have been set up, they don’t have any objection to the existence of these mixed toilets, but in practice their existence hasn’t changed the people who choose to use the designated “female” toilets in our office and that was the cause of their initial complaint x

I think it depends entirely on what kind of toilets they are. The type that is self-contained, ie you walk straight into an individual cubicle from the corridor, that is complete with sink/mirror etc I think is fine to be mixed gender/sex. The type that has a communal area with individual stalls but a shared facility area with sinks/mirrors etc should be female or male only.

It is not the space, it is the validation that matters

It's against some religions for women to be alone with males - a transwoman GRC or not is still a male, and against that person's religion. A rape survivor with PTSD often cannot bring themselves to be alone in with a male, GRC or no, transwomen are still males.

I'm personally a sex assault survivor - I now no longer can use public toilets, changing rooms, and had to change jobs because the feelings on men in dresses took priority over every other rights a woman previously held.

If it is a women's toilet with say three cubicles, I don't want to be in an enclosed space/room with a male that I don't know. With only one exit.

I don’t ever use the men’s, because if we’re arguing against anybody male bodied being allowed to use women’s facilities then the same should apply in reverse. There are plenty of men, in particular older men, uncomfortable at the idea of having women in their facilities.

The original post didn't just talk about toilets and you say in your own response that toilets are different to changing rooms and other spaces, so you do see the problem.

You shouldn't be going in to the mens toilet, you have no right to decide that men you don't know should be forced into a situation where their genitals are exposed to someone of the other sex while they are using the urinals. You are infringing on their privacy and dignity, it shows a complete lack of consideration for other people's feelings.

I have no desire to see a male person naked in a space that is advertised as being for women only, just as I am not willing to have a male person see me naked or in a state of undress in a gym changing room, or hospital ward for example. I have no religious affiliation but am a naturally private and modest person. The only man who has ever seen me naked is my husband, that's my choice. The changes to how a person is defined as a woman have me at I've had to stop using 2 gyms and a council leisure centre because they only had sex specific communal changing spaces, no cubicles, and they changed the definition from sex based to gender based so I could no longer guarantee that males wouldn't be present in the womens changing room.

These changes force women to either accept situations where they are uncomfortable or self exclude.

Off the top of my head- Paris, Copenhagen, Malmo... outside the airport toilets are going to be mixed sex I'm afraid.

It depends on the country but you might be in for a culture shock if you think everywhere is like Britain.

I am not much educated on this topic but just off top of my head i have a simple question.

So trnaswomen or transmen can change their mind anytime about what gender they would like to identify as. How can i be sure about safety of my young daughters where transwomen are using the same toilets?

It is already established in sports that transwomen would have an edge over naturally born women in terms of physical strength and buildup. Why do we women have to compromise so many of our safety standards just to make transwomen/transmen secure. I don't understand?? They can carry o being who they are but why must they try and claim our space??? What about our happiness and our comfort???

The countries in Europe who used mixed-sex toilets etc don't seem to have an epidemic of sexual assault or anything? And they don't have large gender critical communities who made a big fuss about it. Everyone just goes about their day.

You're right, you aren't educated much on this. Transwomen who have had hormones etc often tend to be physically weaker than cis-women. It's very normal for transwomen to lose or have unimpressive results when competing in women's sports, despite what the right-wing media will tell you.

This is essentially one of the most common concerns that some people have.

And I think this is a topic where you could find 100 different articles and of them 50 would argue one way and 50 would argue the other.

There’s some argument that these worries about toilets are based on no evidence at all, that there’s no data or research which suggests that any women are at increased risk of violence due to this. Those people also argue that actually this attitude is discriminatory as it portrays transwomen as predatory men, there’s the argument that it is also their “space” to use & that they should be able to use the space that matches their gender identity where they feel happy & comfortable, just like you want to be able to use a space where you feel happy and comfortable.

It’s a really tricky subject to be honest, as I mentioned in another reply, it’s one where everyone’s primary interest is in what
makes them as an individual happy, comfortable, content. Everyone (naturally) prioritises their own needs/wants, but it does
mean that there are always going to be clashes. I don’t know what the answer is but I do think it’s a really difficult situation to handle and going forward I think it’s one employers with office buildings for example are going to come up against more and more, as mine have.

They’re not vetted, even if they are they’re still men.

Women and girls' safety, privacy and dignity trumps kindness to males every time. It's simple, not complicated.

As for 'they have mixed sex toilets in Europe no prob', even if this is/was true, surely the fact is, mixed sex loos are actually becoming more and more widespread in the UK; in pubs in big cities, sports clubs, theatres, etc. And this is surely not welcomed by most UK women.

Why were single sex spaces introduced in the first place? All those years ago, what was the reasoning behind it? WHY? Because males are bigger, stronger, faster and more agressive than females. Fact. And them being in a space where females are vunerable (it doesn't get much more vunerable than having your underwear around your ankles) puts those females at risk. When single sex spaces were introduced, why was it not on the basis that if a male said "I would never hurt a woman, I am no threat" and was then allowed in? WHY? because we know that unfortunately it doesn't matter what a man says. Nor does it matter what they look like. Or where they're from. Or how rich they are. We simply cannot tell by any of these things whether they really are safe or not. So, to ensure safety and mitigate risk, it was decided that no males could be allowed. Regardless. Now we have a situation where no males are allowed, unless they say "but I believe that I AM a woman" - that can be said whilst sporting a full beard and a very obvious male physique. Doesn't matter. If he says he believes that he's now a woman, all those risk factors disappear. Apparently. Is that what we're supposed to accept now?! That by simply saying "I FEEL that I'm a woman" some sort of physiological magic happens and that male suddenly becomes smaller, slower and weaker than he had been previously and so the risk goes away
This will never make sense to me (Irish living in Ireland, where we unfortunately have self ID as the law now)

How do you 'be kind' to the genuine gender dysphoric men out there if they would genuinely be distressed by asking to use the ladies loo? Or is it just that you can't be?

A dysphoric man is not a woman. If it causes a man distress to use a men's toilet that a men's problem that requires a solution suitable for a man. Women's facilities are not for distressed men.