Help me with an argument re adult transwomen please

[plipplops]

I was having a conversation with my sister about why transwomen should be in women's spaces. She's open to the conversations but thinks 'it's complicated'.
I was saying that under no circumstances do I want a bloke in my changing room/toilet/hospital ward/rape crisis centre/sports team.

She works for a large bank and there are a couple of transwomen who work there. They're older, more of the old school transsexual and possibly have a GRC (or would certainly go through the effort of getting one).

She feels that if they have a GRC they should be able to use the ladies loo as having gone through the process of getting a GRC means they're somehow vetted and therefore no safeguarding risk to women. I feel that they just need to go in the mens.

How do you 'be kind' to the genuine gender dysphoric men out there if they would genuinely be distressed by asking to use the ladies loo? Or is it just that you can't be?

My hunch is that you can't be, and sorry but just use the mens, but I'm interested in the other side to the debate?

Aside from the fact that trans women as a class are not a danger to cis women as a class, segregating loos by birth sex is both danerous to transgender people and entirely unenforceable, and leads to GNC women being targeted and harassed. Even if you believe that men frequently disguise themselves and enter women's loos, what's to stop men claiming they are trans men and doing the same thing?

I'd very much like to hear how you think sex-based loos are to be policed.

Aside from the fact that trans women as a class are not a danger to cis women as a class - excuse me?? transwomen are MALE and therefore inherently pose a risk to women & girls. Because they are bigger, stronger, faster and more agressive. That's fact. What you're spouting is nonsense.

Do we need police or legal enforcement to remind males to keep out of women’s toilets? Or should males be able to police their own behaviour?

And no need for the cis - we know we’re female, we were born that way.

The stats also show that there are a far higher % of males who identify as women who are in prison for sexual assault than the general male population, so actually they do present more of a risk.That’s coupled with the risk to dignity, privacy and so on of course.

Sex-based loos used to be 'policed' by common consent. Women didn't go into male spaces, and men didn't go into women's spaces. This social contract has now been weakened.

Not all toilets are mixed sex in Europe just as many toilets in the uk are

Hi changed thanks for sharing your experience. That's interesting to read

We revert to pre-TRA normal times, when everyone understood the reason for single sex toilets and there was a social contract to keep them that way. When my bloke realised he was accidentally in the women's whilst in an unfamiliar work branch, he sweated and panicked until he thought the coast sounded clear, then made a run for it. He "policed" himself by not wanting to be thought of as the office perv.

I've been in some rough boozers in my time, but never seen your average male yobbo deliberately aim for the ladies.

I mean you're just talking shite now. I just got back from Copenhagen and not once did I see a mixed sex toilet. I went to many public places, restaurants etc. Stop making stuff up.

Not a danger? A TW remains male regardless of what hormones have been taken therefore will retain the likelihood of offending no more or no less than any other biological male.

In terms of how it's policed? This is where women actual biological ones are screwed because I guess it can't be. That doesn't mean it should happen. Any biological male who uses this as a loophole or gets in through deception is quite frankly a rather awful human being.

Why should my teenage daughter ever be in a position where she is in close proximity with an unknown man in a vulnerable position, quite possibly alone just so that man's delusions can be validated?

Perhaps dads like yourself can put the energy you currently invest in talking down to women about their fears, into making other biological men in mens toilets less hostile to TW? Make those spaces safer?

Aside from the fact that trans women as a class are not a danger to… women as a class

The ONS census showed that transwomen are five times more likely to commit sexual assault than other men.

99% of sexual assault is committed by men (including transwomen) and 85-88% of victims are women.

mixed sex changing rooms (cubicles) lead to 18x sex offences than single sex changing rooms.

Yes, but when it comes to reasonable solutions that work for everyone then third spaces has to be it. When people start talking about " feeling validated" the public will turn right off.

Trans women and toilets are a male problem for males to solve. What trans women are, in effect, saying is they don't think they are safe or welcome in a male toilet so they will impose themselves on women because what does it matter if women feel unsafe or worried about their privacy. They are only women and women's feelings don't matter. It is women's role in life to accede to male demands, however outrageous, arrogant and narcissitic they are.

It's all about validation. Remember the hoo-ha a few years ago about the Hampstead swimming lakes? There was a male lake, a female lake and a mixed lake. Where should the trans women go? Common sense would say the mixed lake. Did they? Did they hell? No, they wanted to use the women's lake 'cos validation. Same with the toilets and changing rooms.

Not in the night time economy, though. Women will still be vulnerable if they have to access a mixed sex corridor in order to use the toilet, even if the toilet goes down to the floor and has its own basin.

I've yet to find mixed sex toilets anywhere in Europe - certainly not where I've been.

Just because a man is on hormones it doesn't make him all of a sudden physically weaker than a woman. That is just nonsense. It is not about physical assault so much, anyway, as being made an unwilling walk on part in someone's private fantasy. Women always can feel it when there is a voyeur about.

There have been enough unsettling cases now of men identifying as women using women's facilities and making women and girls feel very uncomfortable at best, and positively unsafe at worst - to know that just because someone declares a trans identity it doesn't magically transform them into a harmless person, or into something they are not.

This is what it comes down to really, there is no acceptable compromise.

A man is not welcome in women’s single sex spaces under any circumstances, no law or amount of people ‘being kind’ will change that, if you let men in some women will self select out.

Choices have consequences, if you as a man don’t want to use the men’s facilities then this might mean you can’t go out, that’s a consequence of the choice you’ve made.

Males as a class are a danger to women as a class. Personal identitification has no bearing on it.

Third spaces ( and services) have always been the most obvious practical solution to meeting everyone's needs, and ensuring dignity and privacy for all.

Personally, I'd like to see separate male and female spaces alongside some gender neutral ones. Then everyone would be comfortable.

Why oh why do people say this? I lived in France for fifteen years. All the supermarkets, hospitals , public offices, the larger restaurants and cafes, motorway services, museums , theatres , all have clearly signed male and female toilets. The only shared spaces I came across were either very small restaurants which only have one loo, in which case people went in separately, one at a time, or the occasional single cell public loo which again were only open to one person at a time. It seemed to be the same when I went to holiday in Italy.

i suppose it may have changed under the onslaught of French TRA’s , but it certainly wasn’t a traditional lack of provision.

(Anyway, many French men prefer a tree).

This is, of course, entirely possible, and in fact some new buildings already have this provision. There tends to be a female block, a male block and one gender neutral facility ( plus a disabled facility, of course) This seems proportionate to the numbers of people needing to use them.

Sounds like the obvious solution to me.

Honestly I think it’s time that where provision is being designed from scratch that we just have individual, fully accessible cubicles with handbasins, for use by anyone. It’s not reasonable to expect e.g. venue staff to police who is using a particular toilet based on how they look - whether that be sex or disability.

yes, of course, three options are thé logical,solution. But we are not dealing with a situation where logic and rationality are the main drivers.

Cast your mind back a few months to the swimming pool/ spa incident, where an AMAB who had transitioned was presented by the ( female) receptionist with the key to the third space changing rooms . All hell broke loose, the AMAB insisted on being given the ket to the female facilities. The woman stood her ground, and the guest attempted to whip up public opinion to have her reprimanded ( bit off more then they could chew there, public opinion was not on their side).

( I seem to remember that the AMAB was later asked to stand down as an official at the gala, because they seemed to find a lot of reasons to walk through the girl competitors’ changing rooms, though of course I could be mistaken).

Yes! In the past year I’ve been to France, Portugal and Ireland and found male/female toilets in all places I went.

We're in a progressives nightmare. Do we have mixed sex because Europe/there are doors, or do we have women+ trans women spaces to keep the tw safe?

[Citation needed]