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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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26
JanesLittleGirl · 27/01/2024 22:37

May I say that I cannot find any reason why I would wish to invite him into my social circle.

OvaHere · 27/01/2024 22:56

Fukuraptor · 27/01/2024 14:44

Clearly, ultimate validation of their "womanhood" is different for different men.

Some like:

  • Winning medals in women's sporting events
  • Getting a job specifically advertised as being for women only, heading a rape crisis centre.
  • Being housed in a women's prison whilst awaiting sentencing for rape
  • Joining the WI and being featured in their magazine
  • Being named "Woman of the Year"
  • Being accepted as a sexual partner by a Lesbian/getting called a Lesbian

So it's not really that surprising that for some men the ultimate challenge to be validated is some level of

  • acceptance by gender critical feminists, to speak on this topic and get retweets and praise from women who withhold it from other trans identifying men.

I think we need to be aware of this.

But I too had initial relief that men with trans identities could apparently see the problems with GI too and that they were visible proof that the GC movement wasn't anti-trans. And some level of openness about what drives it is useful.

But once you see how much male privilege these special men still enjoy you can't unsee the manipulation and conquest of female spaces.

Edited

Just came here to say exactly that.

WeeBisom · 27/01/2024 23:26

By confessing the AGP thing, I get the feeling that DH wants to be honest (I do think it's good for someone to be able to acknowledge that their transition was driven by AGP). But I also have a suspicion about something else (which others have eloquently pointed out) ...AGP is driven by boundary breaking. AGP creates a kind of high where the behaviour has to keep on escalating. At first it's wearing lacy underwear underneath clothes to work, then it progresses to 'being a woman' at home, then a woman full time, then getting access to female only spaces etc. In a way, what would be more perfect than being a fully confessed AGP, totally up front about it, and STILL being accepted by gender critical feminists? to go behind 'enemy lines' and be accepted by them, when you've admitted you are THE thing (a male with AGP) that gender crits criticise?

As Datun says, if this really is a fetish thing, and it's the main reason for DH's transition, then it's kind of messed up to still expect that we perceive DH as a woman. Because then the motivation isn't any kind of mental health care, or even just about feeling more comfortable...ultimately,the reason for the perception ties into his sexual thrills. It makes me feel like an unwilling participant. I honestly just don't see any good reason to acknowledge someone as a woman becuase they get a sexual kick out of it.

Datun · 27/01/2024 23:38

WeeBisom · 27/01/2024 23:26

By confessing the AGP thing, I get the feeling that DH wants to be honest (I do think it's good for someone to be able to acknowledge that their transition was driven by AGP). But I also have a suspicion about something else (which others have eloquently pointed out) ...AGP is driven by boundary breaking. AGP creates a kind of high where the behaviour has to keep on escalating. At first it's wearing lacy underwear underneath clothes to work, then it progresses to 'being a woman' at home, then a woman full time, then getting access to female only spaces etc. In a way, what would be more perfect than being a fully confessed AGP, totally up front about it, and STILL being accepted by gender critical feminists? to go behind 'enemy lines' and be accepted by them, when you've admitted you are THE thing (a male with AGP) that gender crits criticise?

As Datun says, if this really is a fetish thing, and it's the main reason for DH's transition, then it's kind of messed up to still expect that we perceive DH as a woman. Because then the motivation isn't any kind of mental health care, or even just about feeling more comfortable...ultimately,the reason for the perception ties into his sexual thrills. It makes me feel like an unwilling participant. I honestly just don't see any good reason to acknowledge someone as a woman becuase they get a sexual kick out of it.

Yeah. It's a testament to something, isn't it?

If everything is correct, he's getting people, not just women, but children, his pupils, his family, the public, to participate in his fetish.

Whilst simultaneously getting them to feel sorry for him.

And then congratulating him for at least being honest about it!

The Traitors could really learn a thing or two.

FuriousAndFrustrated · 28/01/2024 00:06

Datun · 27/01/2024 12:01

Mine too. He knows she would be so fucked off with that.

And he knows we are.

But we're not the people he's trying to impress in order to sell his book.

Linking himself with Magdalen Berns was the bit that leapt out at me too, with an exclamation of, "How fucking dare he!!?"

APickUpFullOfPinkCarnations · 28/01/2024 01:23

I would like to hear Stephanie's story.

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 28/01/2024 03:04

I don't know what the rules are about pronouns so I'll stick with 'they' 🙄

They seem to have immensely enjoyed their time being part of the problem [demanding particular concessions/compelled language and validation from minors and adults alike/access to female only spaces/vocal platforming for the removal of girls' and women's protections in schools/mouthpiece for the trans movement] yet are now positioning themselves selling the solution as the voice of reason. An audacious move.

I still can't get past a science teacher, (alleged) devout married Christian deciding it was possible, necessary in fact to transition. How did that intersect with their advanced education, religious beliefs and (Christian) marriage vows? Clearly it was desirable and fed by their self-confessed AGP fantasies but it's all very self-centred and illogical. I don't find any of it reasonable or well-considered. I don't find this person the voice of reason in the slightest, they seem extremely manipulative.

AlisonDonut · 28/01/2024 08:08

Karensalright · 27/01/2024 20:50

@AlisonDonut when i say triggered i mean women who have been around here along time who know more than i do. There is no need to be combatative amongst ourselves. I am late stage to GC i was not part of the original journey.

Asking you to not refer to us as 'triggered' is not combative. I even said 'please'.

You've fallen for his grift. You are going to buy his book all about him. That's the aim of his piece in the Daily Mail.

If he was really 'scales fallen from eyes' he'd be doing all he can to reverse the error of dismantling girls' rights in schools to single sex spaces. And yet he never mentions it.

Maybe in a few years you will be able to recognise 'forced teaming' without putting him on your back and carrying him over a golden bridge.

Watching people fall again and again for this prick, year after year, is getting quite fucking exhausting.

ArabellaScott · 28/01/2024 08:21

APickUpFullOfPinkCarnations · 28/01/2024 01:23

I would like to hear Stephanie's story.

Me, too. I was thinking - when will we read a book from a trans widow? Then it struck me that I imagine many are doing their best to protect their children and family. Which means not subjecting them to public scrutiny. So it's a very tricky thing.

Publishing a book that details intimate family history can be a very selfish act.

ArabellaScott · 28/01/2024 08:26

'... To get away with his behaviour and to avoid facing his problem, he needs to convince everyone round him - and himself - that his behaviour makes no sense'.

L Bancroft

Just happened upon this quote yesterday, about some men's need to be a mystery.

domineastronomy · 28/01/2024 08:47

Probably a naive question but how does AGP work if you've had your bits removed?

GoodOldEmmaNess · 28/01/2024 09:02

I smiled wryly at the detail about Debbie's first memory of the feelings of being a woman - the times Debbie dressed up in their mother's tights. I never did that and so I wonder what evidence I have that I am actually a woman at all??

But speaking more seriously if I was told that a small child had secretly donned a routinely sexualised item of their mother's clothing, but I hadn't been told what sex the child was, I would certainly have guessed at boy.

As a small child, I openly and vociferously spoke of my desire to own and wear 'schoolboy socks' , because I was a tomboy. When I wore them it wasn't a secret shameful gratification, because unlike the tights wearing it wasn't a sex thing.

Datun · 28/01/2024 09:07

WeeBisom · 27/01/2024 23:26

By confessing the AGP thing, I get the feeling that DH wants to be honest (I do think it's good for someone to be able to acknowledge that their transition was driven by AGP). But I also have a suspicion about something else (which others have eloquently pointed out) ...AGP is driven by boundary breaking. AGP creates a kind of high where the behaviour has to keep on escalating. At first it's wearing lacy underwear underneath clothes to work, then it progresses to 'being a woman' at home, then a woman full time, then getting access to female only spaces etc. In a way, what would be more perfect than being a fully confessed AGP, totally up front about it, and STILL being accepted by gender critical feminists? to go behind 'enemy lines' and be accepted by them, when you've admitted you are THE thing (a male with AGP) that gender crits criticise?

As Datun says, if this really is a fetish thing, and it's the main reason for DH's transition, then it's kind of messed up to still expect that we perceive DH as a woman. Because then the motivation isn't any kind of mental health care, or even just about feeling more comfortable...ultimately,the reason for the perception ties into his sexual thrills. It makes me feel like an unwilling participant. I honestly just don't see any good reason to acknowledge someone as a woman becuase they get a sexual kick out of it.

In a way, what would be more perfect than being a fully confessed AGP, totally up front about it, and STILL being accepted by gender critical feminists? to go behind 'enemy lines' and be accepted by them, when you've admitted you are THE thing (a male with AGP) that gender crits criticise?

Debbie is (of course) a member of mumsnet. And used to pop up if there was a thread about him.

Although I don't remember seeing much of him since the rather revealing 'I know big boobs maketh the woman' thread.

Datun · 28/01/2024 09:09

GoodOldEmmaNess · 28/01/2024 09:02

I smiled wryly at the detail about Debbie's first memory of the feelings of being a woman - the times Debbie dressed up in their mother's tights. I never did that and so I wonder what evidence I have that I am actually a woman at all??

But speaking more seriously if I was told that a small child had secretly donned a routinely sexualised item of their mother's clothing, but I hadn't been told what sex the child was, I would certainly have guessed at boy.

As a small child, I openly and vociferously spoke of my desire to own and wear 'schoolboy socks' , because I was a tomboy. When I wore them it wasn't a secret shameful gratification, because unlike the tights wearing it wasn't a sex thing.

Yeah. The descriptions of 'how I knew I was a woman' are so obviously not.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 28/01/2024 09:45

He's at it again today!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13013999/Sex-change-Debbie-Hayton-not-woman.html?ico=article_preview_xp_mobile#article-13013999

Most annoying bit is where he thinks he passes, but....

He's against males in female's toilets. And proselytising to minors.

I know you love to hate him, but can't we all just accept some joy in our lives for once? Close your eyes and imagine your favourite interviewer saying to your least favourite TRA "so, is what Debbie says all true then?"

Who would you pick?

I've had a sex change operation but am not and never will be a woman

You may think that changing your sexual identity should be an issue of concern solely to people like me. I came out and transitioned from a man to a woman after decades as a secret transvestite.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13013999/Sex-change-Debbie-Hayton-not-woman.html?ico=article_preview_xp_mobile#article-13013999

FancyJapflack · 28/01/2024 09:49

There’s one thing I don’t understand about AGPs.

If it’s all about sexual kicks why would they risk the loss of sexual feelings in order to get the full surgery? DH says his came back but there was a good chance it wouldn’t have.

I know most of them have no intention of parting with their dicks btw.

RethinkingLife · 28/01/2024 09:51

I know you love to hate him, but can't we all just accept some joy in our lives for once?

I reject this styling that is minimising posters' experience, well-considered positions, and their nuanced arguments and thoughts.

Dontblameitonsunshine · 28/01/2024 09:52

Does everyone on this thread who thinks all males who have gender dysphoria are disgusting misogynists think the corresponding for females? All the lesbians who progressed from dressing and acting as stereotypical men to transing to become men. The ones who wear strap ons because they get sexual kicks from imagining themselves as men? Or do the feminists in mumsnet just pretend that this is a male only issue?

Datun · 28/01/2024 09:55

FancyJapflack · 28/01/2024 09:49

There’s one thing I don’t understand about AGPs.

If it’s all about sexual kicks why would they risk the loss of sexual feelings in order to get the full surgery? DH says his came back but there was a good chance it wouldn’t have.

I know most of them have no intention of parting with their dicks btw.

From what I can gather, the desire to 'have sex like a woman', overrides everything else.

And they are told that they will retain some sexual feeling.

And, of course, there are men who claim to have shuddering head to toe orgasms in the style of a porny Barbara Cartland.

AlisonDonut · 28/01/2024 09:56

Dontblameitonsunshine · 28/01/2024 09:52

Does everyone on this thread who thinks all males who have gender dysphoria are disgusting misogynists think the corresponding for females? All the lesbians who progressed from dressing and acting as stereotypical men to transing to become men. The ones who wear strap ons because they get sexual kicks from imagining themselves as men? Or do the feminists in mumsnet just pretend that this is a male only issue?

I mean, you could maybe try reading words that a whole range of women write and find out?

RethinkingLife · 28/01/2024 10:00

Does everyone on this thread…

I invite you to reframe your question and post it as a separate thread. This thread is about DH.

You may want to consider the impact of transmen like Stephen Whittle, Wolton who reported Rachel Meade, or the experiences and considered thoughts of detransitioners who reflect on their motivations and experiences.

Datun · 28/01/2024 10:01

Dontblameitonsunshine · 28/01/2024 09:52

Does everyone on this thread who thinks all males who have gender dysphoria are disgusting misogynists think the corresponding for females? All the lesbians who progressed from dressing and acting as stereotypical men to transing to become men. The ones who wear strap ons because they get sexual kicks from imagining themselves as men? Or do the feminists in mumsnet just pretend that this is a male only issue?

Fetishes, including autogynephilia, are almost entirely confined to the male sex.

There's no real equivalence for women.

ArabellaScott · 28/01/2024 10:01

Dontblameitonsunshine · 28/01/2024 09:52

Does everyone on this thread who thinks all males who have gender dysphoria are disgusting misogynists think the corresponding for females? All the lesbians who progressed from dressing and acting as stereotypical men to transing to become men. The ones who wear strap ons because they get sexual kicks from imagining themselves as men? Or do the feminists in mumsnet just pretend that this is a male only issue?

Weak. Strawman generalisations and derailing. Next!

ArabellaScott · 28/01/2024 10:03

RethinkingLife · 28/01/2024 09:51

I know you love to hate him, but can't we all just accept some joy in our lives for once?

I reject this styling that is minimising posters' experience, well-considered positions, and their nuanced arguments and thoughts.

'Accept some joy' is a very odd way to frame this. Why would discussing some man's fetish produce joy that women are obliged to accept?

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