Confused on the concept of non binary

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Please be nice, i am not the sharpest knife in the box under normal circumstances and I'm running on about 6 hrs sleep over the past week at the minute.....

But something I've been trying and failing to understand re. the concept of 'non binary' in the 'gender movement' (or whatever it is/ought to be called) is that on the one hand, people who subscribe to that philosophy are saying they reject the traditional idea of explicit male/femaleness (because if "trans women are women" then they have swapped for instance). But then if you have 'non binary' individuals isn't that pretty much saying oh yes, actually there is a binary - and some people don't subscribe to it?

I do acknowledge sex =/= gender but not all NB people are intersex/have DSD

<<thoroughly discombobulated>>

How you feel isn't the issue. It isn't something that is going to be relevant to others. Sex is.

You're conflating sex and gender identity, though.

Sex is binary. Male or female. No other options.

Gender identity is ... fuck knows. It's not sex, it's apparently not sterotypes or personality, but nobody will ever say what it is.

If it isn't sex, it quite possible isn't binary. But if it isn't sex there's no reason why it should 'map' to sex, and certainly no reason why it should take precedence in matters where sex is relevant.

If it isn't sex, it quite possible isn't binary. But if it isn't sex there's no reason why it should 'map' to sex, and certainly no reason why it should take precedence in matters where sex is relevant.

The heart of the matter.

What do you mean by gender identity, and what do you mean about a gender identity matching a sex? If it's not about stereotypes or someone's sexed body, what is the relationship between sex and gender identity?

It's not about feelings.

I'd settle for dull over a world in which people seem to think it's OK to sterilise children just because they don't conform to gender stereotypes or because they might grow up to be gay.

But it would be a lot less dull if we didn't have to constantly fight this regressive gender nonsense.

What do you mean by feeling female?

Female is the state of having a female body. It's not a feeling.

@LizMax why the extreme vitriol? No one is denigrating you or saying your feelings are wrong. Just that they are yours, and not of any wider significance in terms of organising society or making laws. Also not something that anyone else has to agree with or conform to.

I often feel invisible as a post-menopausal woman. It’s a horrible, very real feeling. But it is not a reality - it’s a feeling. Liz are you honestly of the mind that my saying this makes me a Nazi? I might scrap my former comment about NBs often being intelligent people. Christ on a bike 😬

'Born female' & 'physically female' will have you carted off to transphobe prison don't you know.
You are a woman because of your sex, everything else is personality. If you want to call it 'non binary' because at some point someone gave you the idea that there was a way to 'feel female' and it doesn't match how you feel, or you have fixed ideas of what 'masculine' and 'feminine' mean, knock yourself out. But many, many people reject all those stereotypes and so find the idea of 'non-binary' regressive nonsense.

Imagine explaining "non-binary" to the women and girls of Afghanistan with a straight face.

Anyone that thinks they're non-binary has too much time on their hands.
There is no male feeling or female feeling.

Sorry to interrupt but just thought I'd update and say my request to join an NB group on Facebook (which I thought I requested last night but apparently didn't, doh) is still pending. When it's accepted I will also ask on there and post the answers, if people would be interested.

Non binary is the equivalent of coming out as goth or emo.
It means fuck all to anyone who doesn't pray at the alter of gender ideology.

it's about how an individual feels in their own head....can we not have individualism in our society

The issues arise when those individuals think their chosen 'identity' entitles them to special treatment or claim to be somehow oppressed by something entirely made up by themselves.

Why should people who claim to be non binary need things that others of their sex class don't? Or surgery and hormones?

it's about how an individual feels in their own head....can we not have individualism in our society

I feel 25 and rich in my head.

A person whose gender identity matches the usual criteria for their sex assigned at birth doesn't "feel" any discrepancy,

Ah yes, that's usually a way of invalidating the views of anyone who doesn't claim one of these non-matching identities. If you haven't felt it yourself then no-one can explain, so shut up and believe.

But taking what you say more seriously, what are these "usual criteria"? I mean I know what the criteria for same-sex attraction are, and for opposite-sex attraction. I don't feel same-sex attraction but I can understand what it is. In fact with a bit of simplification sexual attraction is even objectively measureable in men (not so much in women)

So what are these "usual criteria for sex assigned at birth" that you mention? We've established there's nothing physically different about being non-binary, so what sort of "usual criteria" don't match and how would a person know if they matched or not?

Do you mean a feeling of discomfort with your body form or sex organs or social role? That could arise for all sorts of different reasons and at all sorts of stages of life. People who are teased or punished or just made to feel inferior by others for not exactly matching one gender identity often feel that discomfort very acutely, and some infer from it that they'd be happier if they matched a different one. Ascribing the discomfort to being non-binary or having some other gender identity with a sex that could never be your own or no sex at all is a decision made after the fact.

In fact we know that nowadays quite a lot of people who ascribe their discomfort to having a discrepancy between sex and gender change their minds about that later, sometimes the discomfort fades naturally or sometimes only after they've had a go at making social or physical changes and found out it made no difference to the discomfort. The discrepancy is still there or even emphasised by the failed attempt to match oneself to a different gender identity.

So- returning to the original point - what are the "usual criteria" that don't match someone's sex assigned at birth thus leading to a non-binary identity?

Why wouldn't you set any? Is that ever, at all? So no ability to discern if someone was male or female, because no criteria to check against?

I can group and classify people in different ways, if I want to, but generally I have no need to. So, it isn’t something I think about.

I’m aware of various ways in which people classify people into male and female categories, like the one you’ve described. I don’t believe there is an essence shared either by all male people or all female people though. So, I wouldn’t try to come up with a definition in that way. It doesn’t make sense to try to define essential criteria of being male or female, if you don’t believe there are essential criteria shared by all male or all female people in the first place.

I would just group people together as I needed to using whatever criteria were relevant to the purpose of grouping them. Other than that I wouldn’t think about it.

I would make sure you respect people’s privacy, but describing the kinds of responses in general terms sounds ok.

So would you agree that sports purpose of grouping requires no males in female sports and safeguarding and dignity grouping requires no males in female spaces? how is a mixed sex group which includes some women who have a woman gender identity, some males who have a woman gender identity and a whole bunch of females with no gender identity ever a useful group?

It just depends what it is. Sports, for example, need fair categories that allow everyone to participate fairly, and don’t pressure people to alter their bodies simply for purposes of fitting a sports category.

@Peasandsweetcorns why do you keep mentioning "essences"? I don't believe in essences or that people have male or female essences. They have bodies, which are male or female. All that tells you about them is some biological facts about their body. Nothing at all about their personality, their behaviour, their preferred presentation or anything like that.

But in this and other societies sometimes it's necessary to recognise that sexed bodies exist and group people accordingly. For safety, fairness, privacy, dignity, and so on. That's all.

why do you keep mentioning "essences"?

Because some people believe there is an ultimate definition of a female body (a female essence), and that isn’t something I believe. It was relevant to answering your question.

But in this and other societies sometimes it's necessary to recognise that sexed bodies exist and group people accordingly. For safety, fairness, privacy, dignity, and so on. That's all.

I agree.

It isn't relevant, I haven't talked about "essences". But there is a definition of a female body, in humans the same as mammals. Can be done in other non-mammalian species. And plants. None of it requires there to be a "essence".

Sports, for example, need fair categories that allow everyone to participate fairly, and don’t pressure people to alter their bodies simply for purposes of fitting a sports category

The only fair way for females to participate is in female only sports. Because the second a male is in the mix it makes it unfair to all the females.

The reason we have female only sports hasn't magically disappeared because some men claim to be women. Nor should it have to accommodate these men in any way shape or form.

The male people can have male or open categories regardless of any 'identity'. If they simply aren't good enough to compete with other men then tough shit. The women's category isn't there to provide mediocre male athletes with validation.

Neither category requires surgery to participate.

The lie being spread that 'trans people are being banned from sports' is ridiculous. They just have to compete with their own sex clasd like everyone else. Simple.