Confused on the concept of non binary

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Please be nice, i am not the sharpest knife in the box under normal circumstances and I'm running on about 6 hrs sleep over the past week at the minute.....

But something I've been trying and failing to understand re. the concept of 'non binary' in the 'gender movement' (or whatever it is/ought to be called) is that on the one hand, people who subscribe to that philosophy are saying they reject the traditional idea of explicit male/femaleness (because if "trans women are women" then they have swapped for instance). But then if you have 'non binary' individuals isn't that pretty much saying oh yes, actually there is a binary - and some people don't subscribe to it?

I do acknowledge sex =/= gender but not all NB people are intersex/have DSD

<<thoroughly discombobulated>>

If you were moved to a body which had different sex characteristics, you would feel the discrepancy.

Just like you would feel differently if your head was swapped with someone else's.

Your "identity" is your own business, @LizMax and I for one am not particularly interested. You do have a sex though, and in certain circumstances that matters to me and most others.

"A person whose gender identity matches the usual criteria for their sex assigned at birth doesn't "feel" any discrepancy, any more than a person with proprioception notices that they instinctively know where their limbs are. So, yes, it makes sense that you wouldn't understand what it's like to be non-binary. You might not know what it's like to be, say, gay, but you understand the concept.

If you were moved to a body which had different sex characteristics, you would feel the discrepancy."

This posits that there is some mental state (gender identity) which 'matches' biological sex, and if it doesn't match this creates mental disharmony. But this is like saying there's a mental state which matches your race, or your height, or your age, or any other biological feature. Why would there even be such a mental state? And what does it even mean for a mental state to 'match' a physical state? Why MUST it match?

I also don't believe that if I moved to a male body I would feel any discrepancy. Mentally, I would still be myself.

My problem with trans theory is it's utterly unfalsifiable. The entire concept of a 'gender identity' which is supposed to be congruent with biological sex has just simply been posited.

In the case of non binary people, it's actually quite grim because there is no way their body and mind can ever 'match'. we are a binary sexed species. It's simply not possible to have a body that is neither male nor female, so presumalby this is something that cannot be cured by transitioning.

@Peasandsweetcorns

"I wouldn’t set any, as I know that different people have different criteria, and I don’t believe in male or female essences."

Why wouldn't you set any? Is that ever, at all? So no ability to discern if someone was male or female, because no criteria to check against?

My criteria would be quite simple, it is the standard scientific definition of male/female as used by Sir Robert Winston. If your body is organised around the production of large gametes, you are female. If your body is organised around the production of small gametes you are male. (Yes, the long form definition of this is more complex, and yes, some people with DSDs can be more tricky to identify as male or female).

No need for that sort of abusive tone is there.my sex at birth is not the issue.you obviously will never understand what being NB is about and I personally don't care what you think either.

It's not just your sex at birth, it's your sex. What I think or you think is by the by.

Om my good gawd..so I am not allowed to think now ..haha

It's navel gazing narcissistic bollocks

Oh FFS. I read this thread up to the point where some fucker implied that I might "identify" as perimenopausal (age identity) so I'm off. It's annoying enough to have to deal with the effects of it without being expected to identify as it.

I didn't say anything about you not being allowed to think. Please read posts properly @LizMax

I just said what anyone thinks about it isn't relevant to the material fact of a person's sex.

What a dull world it would be if people like you ruled it

My problem with trans theory is it's utterly unfalsifiable. The entire concept of a 'gender identity' which is supposed to be congruent with biological sex has just simply been posited.

This.

Thankfully no one rules it, because I wouldn't want to live in a society where people pretended sex didn't exist. It's getting bad enough as it is.

Can you explain why? I feel like there's some major misunderstanding of what people here are saying and what you are taking from it.

There’s major misunderstanding because there’s nothing to misunderstand - you ask for an explanation of NB and you get ‘explanations’ of feelings and ‘mental states’. The ‘explanation’ is really just a description. The phrase really should be ‘I self-describe as non-binary’ - because that’s all it is and I can switch off in the same way as I switch off when someone tells me they’re a Leo or Aries.

Exhausting stuff taking up far too much headspace in people who are often intelligent and creative. Shame.

I get that, but @LizMax is saying that understanding sex to be binary is somehow dull - restrictive?

People here who recognise that sex is binary are making no comment on your personality, how "masculine" or "feminine" you present, how you dress, how you behave, what you do or anything other than a simple fact about your body. Sometimes that fact about your body matters, e.g. for health care, for accessing single sex services especially in this unequal world where that is vital for women in some situations, for safety/dignity/privacy. That's all.

Yes exactly @fedupandstuck

you were moved to a body which had different sex characteristics

What constitutes the "you" that is moving in this scenario?

I respect people who know that ,they know that,they are all woman or all man..it's not about that..it's about how an individual feels in their own head....can we not have individualism in our society.I know what sex I was born with..I don't want an operation.I just want to be free to walk down the street as I am.Sorry if some people are disgusted about it but not every one can conform

@LizMax surely you can see that no one is telling you to conform? We women posting here are usually non conformist ourselves. I reject most sex based norms for women, because they don't do anything for me. Many people perceive me to be quite masculine in presentation and behaviour, although my body is pretty clearly female regardless of any of that.

Your sex doesn't dictate any of that and people here are absolutely not saying that it does. That's rather the point, in fact.

I know I am a woman in the same way I know what age I am. They are concepts that have been created to describe an objective reality. I can no more identify out of being a woman or into being a man as I can be a child again.

I think to understand the whole non-binary thing, it is helpful to use the analogy of binary numbers. A binary number is either zero or one. Either on or off. Either exists or does not exist. That's a binary, and it has proven really quite useful in computing!

So for non-binaries then, if it/they/he/she/etc isn't a binary (i.e. they are non-binary) then that person's gender must either be nothing at all or it must be more than one thing.

In the context of persons, if they are choosing to be nothing at all in terms of gender then they are saying that they personally do not have a gender (although I do not think most would deny that gender 'exists' so to speak, in the minds of others). Alternatively, other non-binary people might say they have more than one gender simultaneously.

@bawbells that requires a definition of what "gender" is that is different to personality, surely,

Yes I can see what you are saying and I respect it but it won't change how I feel.🙂