Confused on the concept of non binary

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Please be nice, i am not the sharpest knife in the box under normal circumstances and I'm running on about 6 hrs sleep over the past week at the minute.....

But something I've been trying and failing to understand re. the concept of 'non binary' in the 'gender movement' (or whatever it is/ought to be called) is that on the one hand, people who subscribe to that philosophy are saying they reject the traditional idea of explicit male/femaleness (because if "trans women are women" then they have swapped for instance). But then if you have 'non binary' individuals isn't that pretty much saying oh yes, actually there is a binary - and some people don't subscribe to it?

I do acknowledge sex =/= gender but not all NB people are intersex/have DSD

<<thoroughly discombobulated>>

Gender is a construct. The trans lobby are confused about gender and sex. They don't understand that gender is imposed on people and that it is absurd to say that anyone 'has' a gender. They are mistaking a lack of identification with the gendered expectations which have been imposed on us because of our sex for a 'gender identity' corresponding to the opposite sex, or of a fantasy non-sex which they call non binary.

They haven't appropriated the concept of gender as a construct, they have completely misunderstood what it means.

Of course you’re being disingenuous. Anyone following the discussion knows we are focussing on the pronouns she/her/he/him etc, not every single pronoun in the entire English language. I thought that was being taken as read, but not for people with no argument. Those particular pronouns are sex-based. Always have been. Always will be.

It's pretty obvious what "pronoun" refers to in the context of what we're discussing, i.e. your own claim that pronouns are gender-based rather than sex-based.

@BabaBarrio Critiquing the oppression of women is by default extremely non gender conforming. Refusing to passively accept that women are by nature willing support humans is one of the most non gender-confirming ideas imaginable. Feminism is gender non-confirming by default. Are you by any chance judging gender conformity/non conformity solely on aesthetics? Clothes? Hairstyles? Because I invite you to check out the 70s/80s/90s where it was already known that anybody could wear anything and it didn’t matter. You’ve gone back ten steps and told yourselves you’re moving forward.

Woman means adult female human. It's nothing to do with thought or identity. It is the word for an adult human of the female sex.

We have similar names for the males and females of other species.

A ewe is an adult female sheep.
A ram is an adult male sheep.

No thought or identity required.

Ok, so masculine/feminine is performative and based on stereotypes. How feminine or masculine you are doesn’t dictate your gender identity, but rather how you present.

love a bit of satire.
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This is satire right?
I mean I was wondering what this was

You've gone from saying third-person singular pronouns are gender-based and always have been, to suggesting we suddenly need to split pronouns into two categories: one for strangers and one for people we know.

It's almost like these pronouns were always intended to be based on biological sex, and face huge complications when someone tries to twist sex into gender.

It's all very well repeating all the things that gender identity is not. How about a definition of what it is?

Yes, Baba let's have a definition please.

Of course thought is required to identify objects, animals, humans and a higher level of thought, self consciousness, is required to know who and what you are.

How can you know you are a woman without being able to think and identify yourself?

Do you think the sheep knows it is a sheep in the same way you know you are human and a woman? Do you think your inner life and thoughts are on the same level as that of an ewe?

To be fair as someone upthread has said most NB are autistic girls/women so I guess it's more that they believe the stereotype of what a women is just isn't what they feel they are?

Which is what most of us would think if we ever did think about it, but we would have the elasticity to realise that being a women isn't all push-up bras and hoovering and therefore we don't have to feel we need to distance ourselves from this stereotype?

”Gender identity is the personal sense of one's own gender.[1] Gender identity can correlate with a person's assigned sex or can differ from it. In most individuals, the various biological determinants of sex are congruent, and consistent with the individual's gender identity.[2] Gender expression typically reflects a person's gender identity, but this is not always the case.[3][4] While a person may express behaviors, attitudes, and appearances consistent with a particular gender role, such expression may not necessarily reflect their gender identity.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

@BayCityCoaster cos we're being difficult bitches?

Read my post again. I'm sure you'll be able to understand it if you read more carefully and try really hard.

Not sure about that, @OldCrone

What? I haven’t suggested that at all.
How is it more complicated to use they for everyone than having to guess which to use between she or he?

How can you know you are a woman without being able to think and identify yourself?

I know I'm a woman because I have a female body.

I know you haven’t!

I said I thought I knew, but clearly I do not.

Please could you educate me. It’s a simple and polite request.

That’s really funny coming from you.

I’m afraid I believe you do know what a gender nonconforming woman looks like. Even if you were blind, you would have read or heard of how a gender nonconforming woman looks.

In that context, it is not a simple or polite request, but something else altogether less honest. I am sorry, but I must regretfully decline your request.

But this definition makes no sense. To expand on it with the definition of gender included from its hyperlink:

“Gender identity is the personal sense of one's own gender, gender being the social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of being a man, woman or other gender identity.”

So gender identity is the personal sense of the aspects of one’s own gender identity?

It’s another TRA circular definition.

And how do you know this without having a single thought in your head? 💭

We've all seen the circular Wikipedia definition. I was asking what you think it is.

Gender identity is the personal sense of one's own gender.

What does gender mean here?

Gender identity can correlate with a person's assigned sex or can differ from it. In most individuals, the various biological determinants of sex are congruent, and consistent with the individual's gender identity

In what way(s) does gender correlate with sex? What does it mean for biological determinants of sex to be consistent with a person's gender identity?

I think it was me who said that, or something similar. Autistic people do have a tendency to navigate society according to scripts - e.g. "people say x in y situation, therefore I will observe and copy so people don't think I'm rude or weird". Kind of similar to not having any innate sense of rhythm, so you just watch everyone else clapping along to songs and then do what they do (I was that kid).

Gender norms and expectations are a type of script. "I am a woman, so I should be wearing these clothes and acting in this way. But I don't relate to any of that, so maybe there's something wrong with me."

Then you get websites like Tumblr, which tend to be frequented by misfit girls with niche and passionate interests and so have a high rate of autism and ADHD. Tumblr introduces some of these girls to the concept of trans and nonbinary. Suddenly it makes sense. They don't relate to femininity because they are not a woman.

One of the few NB men I knew was also autistic, and when I asked him what made him feel like he wasn't a man, he cited various experiences commonly reported by autistic people - experiences like feeling out of place among members of his own sex.

I'm not autistic myself, but I've had a lot of autistic friends who've shared details of what it's like.