Confused on the concept of non binary

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Please be nice, i am not the sharpest knife in the box under normal circumstances and I'm running on about 6 hrs sleep over the past week at the minute.....

But something I've been trying and failing to understand re. the concept of 'non binary' in the 'gender movement' (or whatever it is/ought to be called) is that on the one hand, people who subscribe to that philosophy are saying they reject the traditional idea of explicit male/femaleness (because if "trans women are women" then they have swapped for instance). But then if you have 'non binary' individuals isn't that pretty much saying oh yes, actually there is a binary - and some people don't subscribe to it?

I do acknowledge sex =/= gender but not all NB people are intersex/have DSD

<<thoroughly discombobulated>>

Because you don’t get to dictate society or social rules.

Please tell me you are being ironic. Language rules - not social rules - means pronouns are sex based. Why is a small minority dictating anything different to the rest of us?

Society is the sum of what the powerful and influential want.

So trans activists are powerful and influential and what they want is all that matters?

If they say it is rude, it is rude.

And many people say making me mis-sex someone is rude.

There is no use complaining to those of us who agree, it’s not like we could change it to suit you anyway.

Change what to suit who? It is being demanded of me that I change from something, nothing needs to be changed back.

My cousin’s teen daughter claims to be non-binary because she prefers to wear men’s deodorant some days, and other days she prefers women’s deodorant. No other reason.

Non binary = claptrap/beau-locks/cobblers/nonsense/garbage/stupidity/hokum.

Clearly

And even with the concession that some people do consider it an identity, an identity based outside of reality is not meaningful to anyone except the identity-holder.

Nothing is stopping me identifying as American and putting star-spangled banners all over my bedroom, but I think the US government would have something to say if I tried to live and work there without a visa.

Except for the pronouns that aren’t, which are most of them in English.

Language rules are within social rules. Most pronouns are not sex based in English (7 of 11) It’s not “TRAs” taking over the country. You are the minority.

Except for the pronouns that aren’t, which are most of them in English.

I don't believe in "gender" as distinct from sex. "Gender" wouldn't exist as a concept if it wasn't for sex. Gender is based on sex stereotypes. So pronouns are based on sex.

Most pronouns are not sex based in English (7 of 11)

Third person pronouns which refer to the sex of a person. It's clear you aren't actually wanting a good faith discussion, are you.

Third person singular pronouns for people are sex based.

And even with the concession that some people do consider it an identity, an identity based outside of reality is not meaningful to anyone except the identity-holder.

Nothing is stopping me identifying as American and putting star-spangled banners all over my bedroom, but I think the US government would have something to say if I tried to live and work there without a visa.

Exactly. There are limits to "identity". As there should be.

@TheMarzipanDildo
Off the top of my head I think you are right. She would have argued via Althusser and the process of interpellation that the gendering your child perpetuates the existing superstructure of male hegemony. This is all an unconscious and unwitting process of course.

However, what she did introduce (along with Freud I think) is the concept of gender as a construct. I am sure how you can see how this might be appropriated by identity politics and the trans lobby.

Me, myself and I
You, your
They, them, themself

8 of 12 pronouns are not and have never been gender based (or sex based if you like).

Who are the minority?

of 12 pronouns are not and have never been gender based (or sex based if you like).

You knew full well which pronouns I meant.

Well, exactly.

And why is this gender identity not only more important than sex, but also the only 'type' of identity that is important? Do we have an 'age identity' too?
I do feel younger, and I actually 'pass' as younger.
Should we legislate based on how young/old I feel or think of myself?

I rather think it’s those claiming all pronouns are sex based or pronouns have always been sex based. When really, it’s only a small fraction of pronouns that might be sex based or gender based. And this is in English…who says that is the language we should base a global society on?

I rest my case. Not going to engage with disingenuous nonsense.

@BabaBarrio is anyone masculine or feminine all of the time? I don’t think so. Certainly if there is anyone like that (100% m or f) they are surely a minority, not the default.

No one is saying it is more important than sex.
We do have age identities, lots of them

• infant, child, teen, adult
• generation names
• working age, pensioner age
• childbearing age, post menopausal age
• young, middle, old age

More of a last stand.

I must have not been explicit enough. A third-person pronoun is designed to make it easy to refer to someone when you don't know their name (and likely nothing else about them except what you can see) and you are talking about them in the third person.

Examples:

"That receptionist was so rude! He kept asking me personal questions about why I wanted to see the doctor."

"What's that guy doing on the neighbour's roof?" "Oh I think he's retiling."

Nobody is going to waste time asking the receptionist or the builder what they identify as before they start talking about them. It's a shorthand based on what can be observed about a person.

As for picking someone out of a crowd, isn't say, a lone man in a crowd of women just as notable as a lone black jumper in a sea of rainbow t-shirts? What is the most efficient way to point him out to someone?

Third-person pronouns are simply not gendered in the way you are claiming. They are sex-based. As previously stated, a gender-based pronoun would be pretty useless.

You should say what you mean. Saying something you don’t mean, isn’t that disingenuous?

It’s not hard to just use “they” certainly less brainpower because you don’t have to worry about accurately discerning their gender before using it.

I have never seen a crowd with only one man or woman in it. This is getting to be a very unrealistic scenario.

Those are not inner identities, they are classifications based on external facts, ie whether you can have a child or not, whether you are working etc.
🙄