Another GC Employment Tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #4

[nauticant]

Roz Adams was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) as a counsellor. She is claiming constructive dismissal for Gender Critical (GC) beliefs. The CEO of ERCC is a well known transwoman known for, among other things, controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There's live tweeting from https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets. There's an informative substack here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

This post explains how to get access to watch the hearing: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2?page=24&reply=132419912

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
ERCC or R: Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the respondent
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM or KT: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

RA gave evidence over 15-18 January 2024.

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024 (on behalf of RA)
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katy McTernan (referred to both as KT and KM): 22-23 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Miren Sagues (MS): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katie Horburgh (KH): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis
Thread #2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2
Thread #3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4990903-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-3

Thank you for the new thread and big thumbs up to the TT wims.

So why not just say that? That's what I don't understand.

When we were given government funding that I had to allocate to different applicants for specific things, I'd quote the funding rules and exceptions.

It's like they can't say it. Or won't.

Why pretend to be women only and a women run service when they aren't?

Presumably they can't say it because that would be a denial of TWAW. (And they'd get.more emails.for the Hate folder.)

I've just been reading yesterday's tweets.

There's a bit where KM interjects to tell NC that AB is "pronounced (?pronouns) they're"

Did she really correct pronouns?

It seems that there is a determination to be seen to be upholding the true religion to me.

I imagine KM was feeling under pressure and maybe wanted to get back a bit of control by forcing pronouns? Or maybe she's scared of AB? I would be

It’s quite a variation of the Emperor's new clothes as now it’d be a case of the little child being whisked away by the thought police to locked up instead of being lauded for speaking the truth.

just clarifying that I wasn’t saying TWAW (from last thread) as you seemed to think I might be.

You were perfectly clear. The poster both misunderstood posts and was mistaken. They said they hadn't read the thread.

The kernel of all of this is the definition of female and male.

And we know from the Haldane judgment (if I have it right) that she says it's not necessarily biological sex. Which it absolutely must be if we are to keep any rights or anything at all free of males.

What a total & utter mess they've made.

I’m always at work when these tribunals are on so I’m really grateful to TT and to you wims for the commenter.

Today though I am NOT at work! So happy I can follow this live. I am supposed to be reviewing my trainee’s portfolio though….

And the dog will have to go and answer calls of nature.

<sigh>

Yes she did!

She also corrected NCs use of he for MW as well if I remember correctly.

Can I just say that on reading the last thread there was an attempt to divert, distract and derail by one of our resident scolders, and you all moved on without engaging. I am sure the poster was gnashing their teeth greatly. WELL DONE.

God it must be so frustrating dealing with someone like that..

I really hope the judgement specifically mentions the absence of particular witnesses, and if there was a sick legalese burn

<pale> You think it might express "surprise" at the absence plus a legalese burn? </pale>

Severe but firm. The provocation has been great.

@Boiledbeetle I feel like those, in themselves, demonstrate what it must be like to work within this organisation. You just couldn't be policed on your language 24/7 - it would be exhausting!

Years ago, a colleague referred to me as 'cis', and as having 'cis privilege' as a way of trying to imply I should put up and shut up with something, as I was deemed to be starting from a privileged place etc. I couldn't formulate a reply as I was both offended and surprised and understood the warning. It meant I didn't say much about anything in front of that person again.

Pmk

And thanks for all the poetry

Adds correction of pronouns as something I'd overlooked mentioning when describing my current meeting experience. (I have 3 such meetings today, save me.)

In response to:

When they attend events or meetings they always centre their contribution around themselves, eg “I’m a trans migrant woman of colour”

I envy you if this is unusual. "I'm [X], my pronouns are [several]. I live with ADHD, this may manifest as taking thought breaks. If I delay before responding, please don't speak as it interrupts my thought and may trigger mutism. I have rejection sensitivity dysphoria so consider how you frame responses to me." and it goes on. Usually, a couple of (mental) health conditions and maybe even a physical description: "I have [Y]-length, [colour] hair, with [X]-coloured eyes".

Add in the number of people who tell you about the land on which their institution stands, the displaced people, various historical treaties…it genuinely cuts down on any meeting time if there are several speakers. (I do mean virtual as well as in-person.)

Context: healthcare; charities and voluntary organisations; training or public events for all of these; academic events for these; working group meetings for all these.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2?reply=132392795

Morning! What further wonders will today bring? I've got the blood pressure monitor at my side if anyone needs it.

Although we do seem to have enough monitors....

The Haldene judgement is incredibly difficult for employers.

The judgement was clear only a GRC changes your legal sex but employers are not able to request a GRC to know someone’s legal sex.

As we know passports and driving licences are effectively Self ID so the only option is to ask all employees for their birth certificate. This then risks outing some employee’s as you also need their passport for right to work checks.

I agree that in the short term we need to have the law clarified to distinguish between biological sex and “legal sex”.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me that “legal sex” is a thing but currently in law it is. c5-6000 people having a legal sex that is different to their biological sex. The law created this concept and to just leave them in legal limbo is unreasonable. Keira Bell is legally male and has no legal way to reverse this - a properly thought out revision to the GRA than includes detransitioners is required but will take a lot longer to achieve than a clarification of the difference between biological and legal sex.

MW does not have a GRC and so is legally male. Haldene clarified that.

@LarkLane Did MNHQ shed any more light on why they think you have 2 accounts?

<think they have outed one of the six> 😂

I wondered if that was a clever lawyerly trick. She did it to MW too, NC said "him" and got "her" in reply.

So, she can't recall or doesn't know much, but she's shit hot at grammar. Good for her. Everyone has a skill.

I wonder what infuriating nonsense we'll have to listen to today?

Think I'm gonna need a strong cup of coffee to get through it!😂

Well said and a timely reminder. I do think as it was an early case and as (understandably) Sonia has not carried on keeping up a high profile to fight this particular war like some others such as Maya it's easy to forget (particularly if you're menopausal like me).

Sonia is an example of what safeguarding should mean - raising concerns without fear or favour, putting children's well being first above adult egos and political views. She's an absolute shero and absolutely should not be forgotten.

My annoyingly menopausal brain thanks you!

"Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology...'

😂

@RethinkingLife I have contact professionally with someone who has a couple of paragraphs not dissimilar to this as an email footer. It outlines pronouns, how you should refer to them, pronounce their name and shortenings, what font you should use in emails, how you should speak and use your camera and mic, etc etc.

I am absolutely, probably more than the average, up for accessibility and inclusion and the many shuffling up to add in the few etc but honestly, honestly.....

Maybe if you are constantly having to override the evidence of your eyes and ears and remember wrong sex / other pronouns there's no room in the memory for anything else.

What wonderful employees the pronoun warriors will be.... so productive