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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another GC employment tribunal. Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #2

995 replies

nauticant · 19/01/2024 12:59

Claiming constructive dismissal for GC beliefs.

ERCC CEO is a well known transwoman know for controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There was live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
R or ERCC: the Respondent, Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024
[more to follow]

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
Mmmnotsure · 22/01/2024 14:54

NC the one and only piece of info that tells u someone is a tw is if they say they're a woman - and they are obviously male

KT I'm slightly confused by the eg

NC if DH were to say to you I'm a tw, would you believe him

KT yes

NC if DH said I id as a woman, with beard and man's clothes but I id as a women, you'd accept him cos it's just what he says

NC: you don't think he's a tw do you
How do you tell. What is your criteria?

NC I would, eg if he'd written to passport office and got his id changed. If he'd gone to trouble to live like a woman, yes. It's not easy

NC what does it mean to live as a a woman

KT has no idea.

GCITC · 22/01/2024 14:54

Farmageddon · 22/01/2024 14:50

Thanks for keeping us updated, have been following along for a while, NC sounds brilliant.

Sorry if it's been answered already, but was this crowdfunded for?

No.

Roz now works for Beiras Place, which is funded by JKR. Make of that what you will.

Mmmnotsure · 22/01/2024 14:55

She's heard of Forstater at least!

Boiledbeetle · 22/01/2024 14:55

Farmageddon · 22/01/2024 14:50

Thanks for keeping us updated, have been following along for a while, NC sounds brilliant.

Sorry if it's been answered already, but was this crowdfunded for?

No, but the claimant works for Beiras Place so chances are JKR had her hand in her pocket for this one

lechiffre55 · 22/01/2024 14:55

IamSarah · 22/01/2024 14:54

Almost feeling a bit sorry for the poor witness! Naomi is ferocious

Remember this is their only witness. The face of the organisation in front of the court.

GCITC · 22/01/2024 14:56

Boiledbeetle · 22/01/2024 14:55

No, but the claimant works for Beiras Place so chances are JKR had her hand in her pocket for this one

Twins!

Appalonia · 22/01/2024 14:56

Didn't consider Forstater case had any relevance

well it does!

OP posts:
ickky · 22/01/2024 14:57

I feel sorry for her as well, she clearly doesn't believe it, but has to adhere to keep her job.

I also noted that they now have a number of NB staff that made that decision whilst employed by ERCC. 🤔

RedToothBrush · 22/01/2024 14:58

Why Invisible Issues Matter Part 4535262

I see a couple of points on here which are worth keeping an eye out for.

1/ Someone suggested that they might go down the route of 'No Complaints Made'. I DON'T actually think they will go that far, but I think its something worth picking up on.

I refer to why this is NEVER a defence. The old adage of 'evidence of absence is not absence of evidence'.

If certain counsellors have higher drop out rates of service users than others, without complaint and without explaination this might be evidence. I wonder if this is noted. It SHOULD be - to see if there might be a hidden unaddressed problem.

The thing with really vulnerable groups is precisely the point that they often don't have a voice. They don't make complaints because a) they don't know how to b) they don't feel able to due to the stress of it c) the complaints procedure is something they don't trust / they feel doesn't work. Women with a lack of agency don't feel authority works for them so why bother to make a complaint? For similar reasons that women don't report rapes - because they don't think they will be listened to and taken seriously.

So you have to be really careful with service user satisfaction as a means to assess whether what you are doing is ok or not. You have to look for alternative ways to identify issues understanding that user feedback may well be highly unreliable.

I've talked a lot on MN over the years on this subject with regards to childbirth, Bounty and just generally when it comes to women generally being socialised to suck things up regardless in healthcare (often because they are guilt tripped into the concept that it could be worse and what the hell have they got to complain at - they should just be grateful). Its a reoccuring theme. Trust in authority (or lack of trust) is a reoccuring theme.

If you have a management team who don't understand how this works you have a management team that is already failing.

Women who are unhappy in this situation tend to just drop out the system and disappear or even up with even more unaddressed long term mental health problems. This is why follow ups on data are important (Hello Tavistock - yet another good example!).

2/ They are talking about gender identity to service users. They ASSUME that service users know about gender identity but they then use word salad to them.

We have a huge amount of data now that suggests that huge sections of the public don't really understand what a transwoman or a transman are (Thank Joey Barton for our latest exploration of this!). No politician is really addressing this - we don't have legal definitions and Stonewall is actively liking to blur stuff like this with its own terminology. Think how many people think that you have to have had surgery to be legally regarded as having changed gender too.

We have to remember that service users are particularly vulnerable women. Some will be educated but a hell of a lot will have very poor education levels for a variety of reasons and won't have a fucking clue what they are talking about.

Then you have to process that these are women in a very distressed state. Being able to assert yourself when you have very serious trauma or anxiety is something a lot of people can't do. They often hit authority and do a lot of nodding and deferring to what they are told because they don't feel you CAN say no. Because the lines on consent and automony have become so blurred. Its a passivity that SOOOO many people don't understand. The truth is they may be in a state where they lack the ability to truly consent due to lack of understanding or because they feel under duress to consent.

This is a MASSIVE fundamental lack of understanding of the needs of service users. ANY rape chairty need to be doing the safeguarding work on this and be understanding educational levels, understand that euphisms are poor practice because they lead to misunderstandings and are elitist and that this really is NOT the place to be brings ideas like this to work. It needs to be kept simple to avoid issues arising. Politicians and the NHS is JUST beginning to start waking up to this. But a Rape Service SHOULD be well ahead of the game on this.

The fact it isn't smacks a huge amount of radicalisation spawned from the middle classes and universities. Its not part of the culture of so many working class or ethnic communities - and whether anyone likes this or not - THIS MATTERS.

Its very clearly a management issues which shows up how out of touch with service users and their needs they are.

I think we will continue to see more of the same as this hearing goes on. We need to start recognising it more and more.

3/ All of this is VERY relevant if you have a case where a member of staff has been forced out for believing in sex (not necessarily being 'gender critical') and you have a bunch of staff who believe only in gender identity including one very senior one who seems to have said on record that any staff member who believes in biological sex should be managed out (and is not being a witness for the defence in this case)...

...especially when the Equality Act states that you CAN discriminate on the basis of sex in certain situations which a Rape Charity would firmly fall into.

They are trying to impose the Equality Act wrongly to a situation where the Equality Act has clear exemptions anyway.

Saying something along the lines of the following:
Doesn't agree clients have the right to know the biological sex of staff

Is a VERY interesting move. Why? Because its demonstrating they don't actually know or understand the law here nor their responsibilities to service users in terms of safeguarding. ESPECIALLY when advertising jobs under the exemption clause. I think theres real room for legal cases for any service user here should anyone be brave enough to go down that route.

(This is also where the law needs cleaning up to reinforce the point that sex as detailed in the Equality Act means biological sex not legal sex or we will be FUCKED though).

yourhairiswinterfire · 22/01/2024 14:58

ickky · 22/01/2024 14:51

😱They wouldn't let the service user know if they were going to see a transwomen.

This is abusive.

Gaslighting rape survivors by telling them that 'no men work here', lulling them into a false sense of security, making them believe they'll have a safe, women-only space to discuss their trauma in, then springing a man on them. A man who has no qualifications to be there and thinks raped women who are scared to speak to a man need 'challenging on their bigotry'.

Nasty, nasty bastards.

Boiledbeetle · 22/01/2024 14:58

Doesnt agree service user was asking about sex and not gender of AB

nauticant · 22/01/2024 14:59

KM is suggesting that the service user was asking about AB's gender identity and not their sex.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 22/01/2024 14:59

Thank you

nauticant · 22/01/2024 15:00

Now KM is reluctantly agreeing that the service user might have wanted to know about the sex of the support worker.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 22/01/2024 15:00

Appalonia · 22/01/2024 14:56

Didn't consider Forstater case had any relevance

well it does!

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.

I paraphrase:
I did not consider that employment law that established that gender critical beliefs were not only legal but could not be discriminated against because they were so crucial/mainstream, was relevant to staff or to service users.

FUCK ME.

Appalonia · 22/01/2024 15:01

It's unlikely a rape victim cares about workers gender identity, they're more concerned about their sex?

Froodwithatowel · 22/01/2024 15:02

The coercion also involves that trying to suggest non-consent opens you up to accusations of hate, of a whole lot of high pressure upsetting responses from the people there to help you, and of punishment. A well informed woman with no trauma, not in a place of thinking and talking about some of the worst moments of her life, might well fear to go there.

ickky · 22/01/2024 15:02

Tricky question, Is Eddie Izzard a man or a woman?

Appalonia · 22/01/2024 15:02

Is Eddie Izzard a man it's a woman?!

He's gender fluid

Boiledbeetle · 22/01/2024 15:02

if I'd just been raped and walked into a woman led support group or meeting and discovered it was a bloke pretending to be a woman I'd been fucking furious.

pronounsbundlebundle · 22/01/2024 15:03

She is really really close to just saying 'yes, the traumatised rape victim counts less than the man'.

NC is making her show that is what she really thinks and how ERCC acts.

They are happy for rape survivors to be harmed.

They are offering up rape victims to be abused without their consent.

Mmmnotsure · 22/01/2024 15:03

AB misnamed again.

NC: reads su email - 'is AB a man or a woman. I would feel v uncomfortable talking to a man'. Do you agree this su is asking c sex not gi

KT don't agree. Asking c gender means they are asking c gender.

NC do you agree people use sex and gender interchangeably

KT it's possible, yes.

NC it's possible that su wants to be assured that AB is bio female.

NC Isn't it unlikely that su, who's suffered rape/sex assault, it more likely asking if sw is bio male or female.

KT I think the su doesn't want to speak to a man

NC do you think it's likely if the su turns up and finds someone ready to speak to her, looking like DH but wearing women's clothes - she might be upset

KT I don't know

NC Is Eddie Izzard a man or a woman

KT I think they are gender fluid.

NC Let's say EI is gender fluid and is in girl mode on a specific day and the raped su turns up for counselling is going to be traumatised.

KT not necessarily the case

NC sighs

Appalonia · 22/01/2024 15:03

Self evident that a rape victim wd be traumatised being counselled by Eddie Izzard!!!