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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jane Clare Jones on purity spirals

1000 replies

IamSarah · 12/01/2024 11:26

Really insightful post on X the platform formally known as Twitter I feel it's worth sharing on here:

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1745760345954689255?s=46&t=NGJBRqkXgp1UazF5I8yjXA

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
UtopiaPlanitia · 12/01/2024 17:24

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 17:14

I think Helen Lewis tries to have a foot in both camps to protect her career, which is understandable in many ways.

I agree with you Tinsel.

Also, from listening to podcast interviews, Lewis seems to believe in TruTrans and to think that some children benefit from medical interventions because they are in that category. She’s also very committed to being a Liberal and so very keen on not reducing what she sees as people’s 'freedom' to transition themselves or their children.

tackytriceratops · 12/01/2024 17:24

Meant to add speech marks around "KJW's group for trans kids" as I don't believe they exist.

PencilsInSpace · 12/01/2024 17:29

Froodwithatowel · 12/01/2024 17:13

The Deptford Women's Project letter is a useful piece of background too here.

Here it is, from March 2018:

Statement from Working class community workers from Deptford. We are attending the women’s meeting at the House of Commons today. We would like to offer an explanation as to why this is necessary. See below

After many years of working at grass roots within our community we have recently been made aware of an issue that directly effects the working class and women in our area.

You must understand we are not graduate activists or or women’s rights campaigners. We are community workers and our concerns regarding changes to the GRA come from a lifetime of personal experience and having worked with some of the most marginalise people in our area.

The majority of our recent projects have been working with rough sleepers, the homeless and those that have been excluded from society. The issues they face include: unsupported/ mental health illness, sexual violence and prostitution, childhood trauma and abuse...

domestic violence, poverty, ex care system issues, addiction, prison,rehab,homelessness and austerity.

The people in our community that we represent are the most likely to access/ be placed in sex segregated services.Some have and will access all of these services.

Our local political and community organisations have been infiltrated by a group of well meaning white middle class goldsmith (uni) students. These people although well intentioned have rail roaded many vital projects by introducing identity policies and intersectional thinking. They do this without truly understanding or experiencing working class issues.

Meetings we have attended for the purpose of discussing community housing projects and women’s wellness etc have been used as a platform to re educate working class people on the new academic language expected within our organisations.

As anyone from a working class back ground will tell you, these theories and ideologies rarely translate into working class communities.

The extremely small number of transsexual (I use the old term as this has a very different meaning to the university umbrella term currently thrown about) members of the community are and have always been excepted and protected by community organisations.

We are now informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

No one will discuss our concerns regarding self id. Our local Labour Party has refused to comment or debate with the working class people.

We are attending the meeting this evening as this is only place that is willing to discuss theses issues.

When we are being verbally abused and called fascists because we are concerned about the effects of policy change on marginalised people it is a direct attack on working class women and grass roots organisations.

when sharing information about this event and attempt to shut it down be aware that you are complicit in the silencing of not only women but working class people who have not afforded the privileged of a safe space or university education. Thank you x

tackytriceratops · 12/01/2024 17:34

She’s also very committed to being a Liberal

One of her best pieces was on authoritarianism / totalitarianism on the "left" and the "right." Some people appeared to be predisposed to #nodebate, end of. Which is problematic for clear reasons and is why TRAs and Labour etc do what they do and why we are in such a fucking mess.

Some of the criticism I saw on this early on was simply around the photo and I felt it was mis placed (especially from a couple of US commentators who seem to not care about details) if the event was mixed sex open ticket. Which I didn't feel was fair and I wonder if this is what Clare was referring to initially. But the rest is problematic

RethinkingLife · 12/01/2024 17:36

tackytriceratops · 12/01/2024 17:21

I get that, and I like HL's work, but to refer to KJW's group for trans kids is inexcusable given the context of the book.

I consider a number of women need to make a conscious effort to rid themselves of the reflexive desire to help (me included).

It leads to a lot of self-harming behaviour and the support of social norms that harm other women.

tackytriceratops · 12/01/2024 17:38

This is the HL piece I'm referring to; somehow this thread came up first on Google

Interesting interview about authoritarianism, R4, Helen Lewis/Karen Stenner www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4311625-Interesting-interview-about-authoritarianism-R4-Helen-Lewis-Karen-Stenner

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 12/01/2024 17:45

This is, upon the face of it, a twitter thread that has nothing to do with trans-identification in any way, shape or form.

I would still like those who do not see an issue with Helen Lewis's advice to read through it.

thread

Helen Lewis has a bit of a blind spot about how useful the guidance from older adult males to teens and their parents might be, and what actually happens. As I said, it is not a thread about trans-identification, it's a thread about teenage girls coming to terms with inappropriate internet interactions with adult men. When I read it, it very much resonated with me, although teenage-me was fortunate not to have experienced anything on the scale of that thread. Nevertheless, I did experience adults who hung out in teen-focused online spaces who set out to 'educate' us teenagers on kinks, BDSM, and... gender identity theory. It worked too. I was a TRA for years.

Adult me would run a mile before asking someone like KJW for advice with parenting, or putting them in touch with my own teen.

https://twitter.com/terfalicious/status/1299863533182689280

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/01/2024 17:53

I imagine JCJ has quite a few of us blocked and many others have her muted, so not sure that lecturing us via her pearls of wisdom is the best idea.

Brefugee · 12/01/2024 17:54

Ivm blocked. I guess that account uses a terf-blocker

Hepwo · 12/01/2024 17:59

Some of the criticism I saw on this early on was simply around the photo and I felt it was mis placed (especially from a couple of US commentators who seem to not care about details) if the event was mixed sex open ticket. Which I didn't feel was fair and I wonder if this is what Clare was referring to initially.

Really? So criticism of a tweet describing Went, Stock and Bindel as "three esteemed feminists" is misguided. You consider it okay if he bought a ticket? Is that what makes him an esteemed feminist on a par with Stock and Bindel? He bought a ticket to a mixed sex event?

TheClogLady · 12/01/2024 18:01

I’ve only read two pages of this thread but what I have seen just seems like the same old wokescolding dressed up in slightly more conciliatory-sounding language.

So glad i don’t live in the SE.

Youdontgivemeflowers · 12/01/2024 18:03

I don’t know anyone In real life and I get the impression that you all know each other. I’ve no idea why Tinsel Angel keeps accusing the op of being snide. It doesn’t make any sense. it’s blatantly clear that @TinselAngel is being snide and @IamSarah is being genuine.

TheClogLady · 12/01/2024 18:05

Youdontgivemeflowers · 12/01/2024 18:03

I don’t know anyone In real life and I get the impression that you all know each other. I’ve no idea why Tinsel Angel keeps accusing the op of being snide. It doesn’t make any sense. it’s blatantly clear that @TinselAngel is being snide and @IamSarah is being genuine.

There are threads and threads of backstory, flowers, which is why I take the opposite view to you!

Floisme · 12/01/2024 18:05

As far as I'm aware, I don't know a soul on this board.

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 18:08

Youdontgivemeflowers · 12/01/2024 18:03

I don’t know anyone In real life and I get the impression that you all know each other. I’ve no idea why Tinsel Angel keeps accusing the op of being snide. It doesn’t make any sense. it’s blatantly clear that @TinselAngel is being snide and @IamSarah is being genuine.

Oh I'm not immune from being snide, I admit that.

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 18:12

There are a few women on the board that I know personally (and probably more I know who have been banned) but I don't think any of them are on this thread.

tackytriceratops · 12/01/2024 18:13

three esteemed feminists" is misguided

Id completely missed this was the title of the photo, and no I'd not class Went as a feminist! And if that was the title of the photo, not misplaced criticism.

Some critics has issue with Stock and Bindel simply being in the photo Went, which stock later said was a photo bomb.

I'm aware Bindel has described went as a "treasure" before which is also weird imo.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 12/01/2024 18:14

What’s a Christian Nationalist? Have we ( Brit) got any? Where do they hang out?

Because I seem to have missed out on this.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 12/01/2024 18:15

RethinkingLife · 12/01/2024 17:36

I consider a number of women need to make a conscious effort to rid themselves of the reflexive desire to help (me included).

It leads to a lot of self-harming behaviour and the support of social norms that harm other women.

That reminded me of this thread from a detransitioner, reflecting on her experiences of the trans community. Even when young women think they're male, they try to help others to their own detriment.

thread

huge thing to know about “the trans community” is that the ideology is that trans men are men, therefore they have male privilege and oppress trans women. so they’re expected to bend over backwards to make up for all this oppression and tend to the trans women’s feelings

literally results in these young girls being told to shut up, send nudes, and donate to a trans woman’s paypal because if they don’t it’s transmisogynistic violence. not even joking.

and you’d be surprised how many young girls DO shut up, send nudes, and donate their petty funds to trans women’s paypals. it’s fucking disgusting.

when i was ~ 15 i gave away a $100 amazon gift card i got as a present on tumblr to a trans woman because of this dynamic. i literally felt it was my responsibility as a privileged male. lmfao

twitter

https://twitter.com/lacroicsz/status/1412947246988075014

Helleofabore · 12/01/2024 18:16

Youdontgivemeflowers · 12/01/2024 18:03

I don’t know anyone In real life and I get the impression that you all know each other. I’ve no idea why Tinsel Angel keeps accusing the op of being snide. It doesn’t make any sense. it’s blatantly clear that @TinselAngel is being snide and @IamSarah is being genuine.

Hardly. I think you will find though that many of us have quite a depth of understanding of the underlying issues. There are threads and threads of background to this discussion.

You are entitled to your opinion. And we are fully entitled to treat this thread of JCJ's as we see fit.

tackytriceratops · 12/01/2024 18:16

I've been at feminist events where we've invited TRAs and trans identified people into the event who were protesting outside. And they refused. I'd rather they went in and heard what was being said.

That's very different to labelling them esteemed feminists and referring children to their groups.

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 18:16

I've not listened to this for obvious reasons but if anybody wants to take one for the team I'm advised it's very informative about what KJ Went really thinks and how he acts:

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=shared&v=jeFjCriIAkg

Froodwithatowel · 12/01/2024 18:17

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 12/01/2024 18:14

What’s a Christian Nationalist? Have we ( Brit) got any? Where do they hang out?

Because I seem to have missed out on this.

I wonder if they might be in the same basement with the Welsh government's impact equality assessments?

Helleofabore · 12/01/2024 18:19

Hepwo · 12/01/2024 17:59

Some of the criticism I saw on this early on was simply around the photo and I felt it was mis placed (especially from a couple of US commentators who seem to not care about details) if the event was mixed sex open ticket. Which I didn't feel was fair and I wonder if this is what Clare was referring to initially.

Really? So criticism of a tweet describing Went, Stock and Bindel as "three esteemed feminists" is misguided. You consider it okay if he bought a ticket? Is that what makes him an esteemed feminist on a par with Stock and Bindel? He bought a ticket to a mixed sex event?

mmmm.... I do think it was 'three esteemed guests' though, Hepwo. I question whether this male individual should be esteemed considering what this individual does and has done to harm women.

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 18:19

Alternatively if anybody here still does transcribing, a transcription of the YouTube thing would probably be a valuable resource.

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