Jane Clare Jones on purity spirals

[IamSarah]

Really insightful post on X the platform formally known as Twitter I feel it's worth sharing on here:

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1745760345954689255?s=46&t=NGJBRqkXgp1UazF5I8yjXA

Wow, yes Tinsel.

I think this is good from Eva Kurilova

https://www.evakurilova.com/p/more-nuanced-than-thou

Yes. Also illustrates how language really is constantly shifting, being used, slipping and changing. Perhaps especially in some contentious areas. The edges of language, almost.

'Compromise can become appeasement.'

Yep.

It also shows that very clearly people will start having adverse reactions to words that are overused and misused to censure and wrongly frame others as extremist. Words like 'nuance' become meaningless and take on the opposite meaning particularly when used in the hands of the people who don't actually have nuance despite the assertion that they are most definitely the 'nuanced ones'.

Bloody hell, you're not wrong.

Strewth. Moaning that because he's polite about when he would violate boundaries he should be respected?

What is this attitude towards respect?

There's no way I would ever respect a man who said he was a woman. I don't give a fuck how polite he is about it. He's wearing sexism for everyone to see. None of it is respectful.

Stop. I still may not respect him because he might be a twat in other ways, but it would at least remove one reason.

What @Datun said.

Good post Datun which I don't disagree with.

To give the other perspective, the furore was about a picture at an event that KJW was invited to about a topic he has lived experience of.

What do you suggest as a way forward?

These events should not happen? Or trans people should not be invited to them? Or that pictures should not be shared of trans people at them?

I don't know about you but one of the most frustrating / maddening aspects of trans activism is Stonewall etc only consulting trans people about women's rights and leaving women out of the discussion.

The event included a discussion of cross sex hormones so it makes sense to hear from people who have taken them.

To move forward I think it's positive to give a voice to everyone, even if you have zero respect for them and what they are saying.

It often has the added benefit of showing the misogyny and sexism for what it is.

Invited? I thought you said upthread that he bought a ticket & the organisers had no control over his coming?

Or that pictures should not be shared of trans people at them?

Didn't you realise that it would get many women's backs up, or was that not a consideration? Genuine question.

He was invited, bought a ticket, there because its open to everyone, there because of his experiences, there because its an ideal place to photo bomb famous feminists. And just so happened that his services were promote by a panel member at the event.

Why the confusion?

He also managed to get to speak at the event didn't he?
Clever fecker.

We're still waiting to hear what you thought of the Radical Notion anti KJK edition Sarah.

He bought a ticket and was invited by one of the speakers.

As I said to Tinsel, it was a rushed and thoughtless post at a busy event and I didn't foresee the reaction. And I am sorry to those it upset.

Yes that. It's a lot of words isn't it? I may be some time.

You could respond on the general principal though?

I guess we'll get to the end of the thread first, @TinselAngel

I wasn't asking for an essay @IamSarah or even an explanation as to how it happened. I was mainly asking how you would feel if a magazine published an edition that was largely devoted to attacking JCJ?

I was trying to convey, both to you and to posters who thought some responses on this thread were harsh, just why there's so much bad feeling. If we can't even acknowledge it then I don't see how we can begin to fix it.

Remind me never to accept an invitation from helen lewis, it could end up costing a fortune.

It could be that he was made aware of the event and he bought a ticket. But he was definitely very much welcomed and his experience valued. Which is odd from an event that i assumed was critical of the whole men pretended they are women thing.

Okay I admit I haven't read the RN edition but yes if there was a publication that specifically attacked JCJ I would feel defensive of her.

These events should not happen? Or trans people should not be invited to them? Or that pictures should not be shared of trans people at them?

So one minute Sarah you are getting a bit snarky that women are being unreasonable in objecting to the photo. The next you say it was "thoughtless and rushed" when you sent it.

So which is it? Is it unreasonable for women to object to the photo?

So you begin to finally comprehend what we have been telling you clearly now for months and months that the sin page continuing to remain published is fucked up. It doesn't even carefully go through and analyse what has been said with accuracy and complete honesty. It is a list of 'why we hate, absolutely hate, this woman.'

Please stop denying that this is the case. What other professional feminist website interested in accuracy and balance would host such a page in this way? Please tell us where a professional feminist website is doing so and we shall all go and look. And I might then change my calling it 'sin page' and calling for it to be removed and never to be republished.

I hope too that you see this thread posted by JCJ when seen in the context of all posted on this thread as to how women who have been targeted by false guilt by association and what amounts to targeted harrassment is hypocritical.

I don't expect you to answer that. Because this thread, as with others will be closely followed.

But I would like to think that perhaps in the future that this constant push from you to lionise your friends on MN while ignoring what they are doing, might stop. For clarity, posting this thread is what I regard as 'lionising' your friends, I doubt that you really actually wanted to discuss it.

If you really wanted to have a blunt and honest discussion about it, then you would not be so upset when people started to analyse it and show the hypocrisy we speak of.

There's 900 odd posts explaining what could happen instead of a yet another new iteration of the "white supremacist" bitching.

After all that, as Eresh says, we get a bunch of snarky questions.

"These events should not happen? Or trans people should not be invited to them? Or that pictures should not be shared of trans people at them?"

Instead, tell us what you think should happen whenever KJK holds an open event in an open public space and someone turns up and speaks that your friends disagree with?

Should KJK and all the women who organised the event be targeted and dismissed as being aligned with those people or deemed to be a major source of problems for professional feminists and 'pure' feminists to deal with? Yes or no?

Considering I doubt they are 'invited' in any way except to take advantage of the open offer as Went did when Went spoke. And that is all.

Instead, could you please tell us what should happen to KJK when someone who she doesn't align with posts up an image of her, either with her or just of her? Should that be considered as KJK 'aligning' with that person? Yes or no?

It would be great to see some understanding of the issues that we have been talking about very clearly here. That you understand now the direct parallels.