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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jane Clare Jones on purity spirals

1000 replies

IamSarah · 12/01/2024 11:26

Really insightful post on X the platform formally known as Twitter I feel it's worth sharing on here:

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1745760345954689255?s=46&t=NGJBRqkXgp1UazF5I8yjXA

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EmpressaurusOfTheSevenOceans · 14/01/2024 11:16

But what is this ‘sin page’ referred here quite a few times? Does it have to do with criticisms of KJK?

Yes, DrBlackbird. It’s linked to somewhere upthread.

EasternStandard · 14/01/2024 11:17

AlisonDonut · 14/01/2024 09:41

I don't think it is a numbers thing. I think it is a middle class, married, not too shabby looking, mother, stay at home, nice house thing.

I mean does she even have any points in the oppression olympics?

It could be

Also I think KJK gets noticed and is great with the media

She uses short effective words that women can get quickly.

She can face a fear of life situation such as NZ and come out with a soup image that shows strength and stands out

The RN (I’ve just heard of in pp) might feel a comfortable way to do academic thought processes but it’s not the same cut through

KJK is a bit unruly too, old established rules don’t matter, and blunt, plus can make errors like anyone - regardless it doesn’t help for energy to be directed at taking her down imo

EmpressaurusOfTheSevenOceans · 14/01/2024 11:18

A key theme running through criticisms of the “populists” in the magazine is disapproval at calling-out the behaviour of male sexual deviants in dresses, and at “othering” people who pretend to be the opposite sex.

And this would also be why they don’t like Tinsel. She calls them out when they prioritise men over their ex-wives.

DialSquare · 14/01/2024 11:19

KJK isn't a navel gazer.
Unfortunately, that's how some of the writings of JCJ come across to me.

IamSarah · 14/01/2024 11:22

Thank you for sharing the links, looks like I need more than a few minutes to read and digest this so will come back to the thread later.

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ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 14/01/2024 11:25

The mistake we are making is assuming we all have the same outcome in mind. GC isnt an official political movement with written objectives.

Some are saying 'that's a man", with all that entails, others are saying trans exists, which leads to other outcomes.

Im finding it fustrating because we're not letting the two movements break away from one another, instead fighing to be the only 'GC' group.

Datun · 14/01/2024 11:30

EmpressaurusOfTheSevenOceans · 14/01/2024 11:18

A key theme running through criticisms of the “populists” in the magazine is disapproval at calling-out the behaviour of male sexual deviants in dresses, and at “othering” people who pretend to be the opposite sex.

And this would also be why they don’t like Tinsel. She calls them out when they prioritise men over their ex-wives.

Yes. It's all about the women.

And if the men are mentioned, it's usually in terms of pattern recognition of abuse.

No hand wringing about theories.

TinselAngel · 14/01/2024 11:38

Well, it's really not complicated. Feminism is for women, not male abuse perpetrators.

TinselAngel · 14/01/2024 11:41

Sorry there I go again with my "scathing personality".

Helleofabore · 14/01/2024 11:48

IamSarah · 14/01/2024 11:22

Thank you for sharing the links, looks like I need more than a few minutes to read and digest this so will come back to the thread later.

Most of us commenting about the thread who are practically yelling 'hypocrisy' have read a great deal of the commentary by members of your group. We have already told you this on numerous threads so far. We have pointed out the hypocrisy time and time again. I don't believe any of us think that KJK is beyond criticism. She isn't. None of us are. We don't just rabbit on here on these threads because we are her fucking 'fan club' despite what others say and think. I think many of us understand that she makes mistakes.

It is the dishonesty that we are trying to stop. If she is being criticised, is it fair and based on original source? Not some fucking recycled interpretation by someone who has a personal bias against her.

I am on repeat. You have demanded an apology from her 'lies' about Rise. Yet, you certainly have not come back and clarified that it IS a lie that Savage was referred to a woman's refuge a decade ago. You haven't clarified that there is now a policy, or even if Rise is involved in any way with single sex provisions. Yet we do expect with your background that you would be the person who would know and be able to tell us the background. Did you even read the tweet you posted a screencap of and read the attached article? Have you once explained to us what was the 'lie' in KJK's tweet? Or has it just been knee jerk reactions to defend a group that include your close friends and therefore we all must be wrong, biased or whatever?

Did you read the article that you inadvertantly linked in the screen captured pic you posted for yourself? Can you confirm what part of the tweet was a lie please?

EmpressaurusOfTheSevenOceans · 14/01/2024 11:48

Well, it's really not complicated. Feminism is for women, not male abuse perpetrators.

Even simpler - feminism is for women, not men. However the men identify and whether or not somebody esteems them.

Froodwithatowel · 14/01/2024 11:55

And if the men are mentioned, it's usually in terms of pattern recognition of abuse.

The theories and handwringing certainly does distract.

I'm honestly no longer that interested in time spent discussing whether there is such a thing as really trans or not, because it's irrelevant. The issue is that there cannot ever be any males of any sincerity or criteria, who have access into all female only spaces. Because you can only indulge their wishes and needs by sacrificing some females, who can no longer use that space or any space.

See the whole 'case by case' basis Chris Phillips is trying to push: that it's possible in theory to let a male police officer coercively control and assault a woman if it's the right man and the right woman at the time, which gives away his underlying belief: that in some situations it's ok to sacrifice a female to a male's wishes.

And yes, it's undeniable that a large amount of sexual issues and abusive behaviours are rife within the situation, and no one in the movement ever calls this out or distances themselves which leaves you with the conclusion that it is not a regrettable bug in the system that most would like removed: it's a key wanted feature. Which links up with why any male police officer would want the right to coercively assault a woman.

We can't hide from these realities because they're a bit mean. And we can't play games with some nice ones, who are friends, who only abuse and exclude women a little bit when they feel like they have to and are happy to make the women they then exclude suck up the 'I have nowhere I can go' so that they don't have to. Even if doing so might help the slow of thinking that we're not being nasty and uncaring by wanting to put the needs of women above the wishes of men. It's fudging the main point.

TinselAngel · 14/01/2024 11:57

EmpressaurusOfTheSevenOceans · 14/01/2024 11:48

Well, it's really not complicated. Feminism is for women, not male abuse perpetrators.

Even simpler - feminism is for women, not men. However the men identify and whether or not somebody esteems them.

Edited

Mine still had fewer words!

EmpressaurusOfTheSevenOceans · 14/01/2024 11:58

TinselAngel · 14/01/2024 11:57

Mine still had fewer words!

Grin
ArabellaScott · 14/01/2024 12:02

'It's a boner thing'

The sheer dull grubbiness of this truth is probably somewhat disappointing if one has spent a lot of time considering more complex and nuanced theories.

I'd say it's a little more complex because there's money and mental health/personality disorders mixed in too.

But the root is the root.

IamSarah · 14/01/2024 12:06

The background to Rise - it lost the council contract for refusing to provide a mixed sex refuge and sticking to its principles of being women centred and providing single sex care. You can read about it here + the campaigns local women have been doing to support it.

www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2021/3/11/bringourrefugehome-a-service-user-response?format=amp

Smearing it as an org that recognises men as women is incredibly unhelpful.

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TinselAngel · 14/01/2024 12:07

IamSarah · 14/01/2024 11:22

Thank you for sharing the links, looks like I need more than a few minutes to read and digest this so will come back to the thread later.

I've still not finished reading Issue 1 of the Radical Notion, 3 1/2 years on, so you may be gone for some time.

Helleofabore · 14/01/2024 12:08

I suspect we will hit 40 pages yet again and that this issue will hit us again soon and we shall start again.

But maybe we are supposed to just gloss over the dishonesty. Gloss over the targeted harassment that a group has conducted while they then lecture us for daring to ask questions about why the group should not be held up to the same standard. It seems that we are expected to do this. That we should stay quiet for the greater good. (or as one poster put it because apparently none of us are doing anything to support women in real life while that group is .... a remarkably prejudiced view of the women on this board.)

That we are expected to not point out the discrepancies, the dishonesty and the hypocrisy and just allow it to all continue is rather concerning. I don't believe that the posters who seem to have posted in this vein mean that. But maybe I am wrong there, and guilty of my own prejudices.

IamSarah · 14/01/2024 12:12

I've still not finished reading Issue 1 of the Radical Notion, 3 1/2 years on, so you may be gone for some time.

I mean, I was never in the slow readers group at school but I must admit I'm finding it hard going.

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Floisme · 14/01/2024 12:15

I would take as long as you need to read it all @IamSarah and please remember my question - which you don't have to answer on this board - isn't so much about how or why that edition happened or who wrote what. It's about how you would feel if someone did that to JCJ?

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 14/01/2024 12:16

The hit job on KJK & the wider 'criticism' of GC spaces as a hot bed of white supremacists/christian fundamentalists is all the same naval gazing waffle that is not reflected in the experiences of women who are out doing the work, connecting with the public & trying to get wider exposure of the madness that we're are all grappling with. As I've said already 7/8 years I've been involved, from being in groups, working on things that have made a difference in moving the dial, attending meetings, events, gatherings, parliament, MP/MSPs etc. and I've certainly come across some odd balls along the way. I've seen disagreements & I've seen arguments, people falling out & people making utter fools of themselves. What I've not seen is any mission creep within those grassroots groups & women, slowly or quickly, descending into right wing religious zealots hellbent on usurping the aims women are fighting for into anti abortion or anti LGB people/rights. The febrile imaginations of those who keep pushing this crap as though it's a serious problem just illustrates how out of touch they are.

Thats why the likes of WPUK, JCJ, the Brighton group mentioned (name escapes me & I'm not scrolling back), Filia & anyone else I've not remembered who are now 'hotbeds' of socfems obsessed with 'talking about this very bad thing' are out of touch with all their theorising & hand wringing over the guilt by association crap. This isn't happening in the groups that are operating. It's just not any reflection of the reality of women involved in this, who are busting their arses to do what they can, to make even a tiny bit of difference.

The women who attend the LWS events are amazing. When you've seen a woman stand up & speak her truth in public for the 1st time, it's a special moment to witness, and the power in that is immeasurable. Making it your mission to shit all over that, because is personal animosity towards the women who organises those gatherings, is contemptible IMO.

It's also absolutely shameful that the likes of TWVs have been blocked by groups who claim to espouse all the correct opinions over their care for women & women's rights. Again, the comments upthread using personal insults against a woman who has more integrity in her fingernail than those who consistently attack her or block TWVs from events, shows that it's all performative. Because difficult women are always treated like pariahs, and it's all the more galling that it's women who are high on their own self proclaimed virtue who can be the most viscous with it. And I agree, commissioning an entire publication of your own magazine on the 'problem' that is KJK, with all the thought & planning that goes into that, and not once have a moments doubt that it's a bad move, shows an alarmingly skewed sense of judgement & perspective.

The notion that the biggest problem we've all got is sleeper cells of right wing religious extremists/white supremacists embedded within grassroots women's groups, KJK or TWVs & their views or opinions is just pure fantasy. At some point, the hyperbole has to fizzle out, surely?

EasternStandard · 14/01/2024 12:16

IamSarah · 14/01/2024 12:12

I've still not finished reading Issue 1 of the Radical Notion, 3 1/2 years on, so you may be gone for some time.

I mean, I was never in the slow readers group at school but I must admit I'm finding it hard going.

I think most do

TinselAngel · 14/01/2024 12:17

TBH I'm never going to finish it because after about 2 years I put it in the recycling.

AlisonDonut · 14/01/2024 12:22

TinselAngel · 14/01/2024 12:17

TBH I'm never going to finish it because after about 2 years I put it in the recycling.

I packed them and moved them here when I moved to France and have never opened them since.

I think after this utter shitshow I'm going to really enjoy taking each one, and folding into origami paper pots and filling them with worm poo compost and growing something actually worth growing. Unlike this so called 'movement'.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 14/01/2024 12:22

TinselAngel · 14/01/2024 12:17

TBH I'm never going to finish it because after about 2 years I put it in the recycling.

I moved recently & managed to dump my 4 editions without ever getting past the 1st issue.

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