Jane Clare Jones on purity spirals

[IamSarah]

Really insightful post on X the platform formally known as Twitter I feel it's worth sharing on here:

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1745760345954689255?s=46&t=NGJBRqkXgp1UazF5I8yjXA

Op I’m sure what you say is right, and as I said in pp not many are trained in SM / PR just motivated and it won’t always be without fault

Although this too applies to KJK as pp says

Yes. And this is where I acknowledge there may be a very difficult line here in that some people might very well need to be signalling support to a group that they need the support of.

Obviously the Brighton feminist group will be reading this. We already know this from
previous threads and activities on those threads and about those threads. It means that more than one poster will be very wary of this in their answers.

It means that there then seems to be inconsistencies. Which in turn causes the dissonance that some of us feel and respond to. These threads tend to go the same way, hence I try (and sometimes fail) to keep my focus on the group who I assume is reading and reporting back. Sadly, as a complete nobody on an anonymous forum, it is probably a useless thought that anything I say will sink in.

I find it interesting how some women are allowed to make mistakes with the expectation that they can be forgiven. Is it because they are perceived to be generally ‘good people’ who slipped up?
Other women, like KJK, are not extended that forgiveness - irredeemably bad?

It has such a weird, puritan, religious overtone - we will forgive these people…because they think/believe like us but that other group are ‘heretics’ so have to be condemned.

Is it a numbers thing? KJK has a lot of followers and those who feel more attacked if she stuffs up

It might feel that way but it really is still the case KJK is direct and motivated and has success with her approach, but still not immune from the same mistakes

If things weren’t antagonistic or ending in pages from a group I’m sure those large numbers could be used to many groups’ advantage. Policy changes would be repeated etc

It cannot be said often enough!

I don't think it is a numbers thing. I think it is a middle class, married, not too shabby looking, mother, stay at home, nice house thing.

I mean does she even have any points in the oppression olympics?

Thanks for replying @IamSarah I found that helpful and constructive and now I wish I'd asked the question pages back.

I have also read Helleofabore's post. Okaaay.

I totally understand your loyalty to the Brighton group and particularly to JCJ. She helps you and you share a bond. I imagine you look out for and feel protective of each other. So I am going to ask you to think about (you don't have to answer) how you would feel if another group, published a magasine, a large part of which was devoted to attacking her?

For me personally that was worse than the Facebook page. I still associate social media with people talking and sometimes saying stupid shit, but the magazine felt like a professional hit job. The editors must have planned what they were going to write, they will have had time to consider what they were doing and right up to publication date they could have withdrawn it.

I don't know if you were part of the editorial team and again, I'm not asking you to say. My point is that, up until then, I'd always see-sawed on JCJ. Her writing was never my cup of tea and I found her annoying at times but I'd also had a soft spot for her. But for me she crossed a big red line when she did that and she's yet to show me any sign that she wants to cross back.

This is all the personal view of a fairly bog standard FWR poster who's been on here a while but who's too much of a cowardy custard to take things much further, and who's voted Labour all her life without even questioning it until now, I've never met KJK/PP or been to a Let Women Speak event and I've no idea how she would view this.

for anyone still trying to follow along, here’s the thread on The Radical Notion issue that Flo is referencing:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4735851-gender-critical-disputes-radical-notion-special-edition-free-to-read-online

(The link in the opening post on the next thread has been deleted -I think Maya got booted from Medium for believing in biologica sex - so I will go try Google it up…)

Edited to add: found it!

https://hiyamaya.net/2023/02/09/on-gender-critical-disputes/

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4737749-mayas-response-to-radical-notions-gc-divisions

People on the far right are NOT gc. They believe in sex stereotypes so are more aligned with tra's. They do not critique gender at all just think you should follow the gendered stereotypes of your sex. This is why far right countries say trans is ok, as they prefer it to being gay.
Being gc has no real overlap. Just because both groups agree about single sex spaces doesn't make religious groups gender critical. It means they also see sex is reality but also disapprove of eg women working. Gc women don't disapprove of anything and think all people can have whatever personality and interests they want whilst still having a sexed body.

Was that the only issue they have made free for anyone to read?

Thanks ClogLady

The reason I do keep on about that page, is that the page is easy to remove. The magazine, which I agree with you on, is been and gone. I doubt anyone will ever apologise but it cannot be removed either.

I have noticed since that edition, that the emails from the radical notion team seems much more common. I suspect that many of us dropped our subscriptions around the timing of that edition. It was free wasn’t it? To make sure everyone had access to it.

Yes that's a good point about the Facebook page.

Although I don't think it's too late either to do anything about the magazine. I know it's out there now but there can still be follow up editions. I don't think it's ever too late if the will is there.

This is true too Flo. But it does take more effort and planning to do and will it too be free for all? I hope they do though.

I agree with every word of this.

I ended up blocking RN emails, and I do wonder how much ground they lost with that issue. I just couldn't believe that they'd devoted a whole free issue to dragging one person nominally on their side. Mind still boggled. Was it meant to be an explanation, or a takedown?

It would take more effort yeah. But then it was the amount of effort that must have gone into it in the first place that I found so shocking.

Sorry cross post!

I'm pretty sure it is the only free one.

I don't know about an article in the Radical Notion, first I've heard of it is on here. I'm not involved with RN.

An entire edition of the magazine. Electronically made available to everyone who wanted to read it for free.

Honestly, has the hypocrisy element begun to sink in?

If you check out the thread ClogLady linked @IamSarah then it might help you understand why there's so much bad feeling.

The issue is here, Sarah: https://theradicalnotion.org/gender-critical-disputes/

And it is an entire issue. The first article of which is a pop at 'femalism'.

As I said, no idea what they were aiming for but where they landed is pure Regina George IMO.

So, I’m only realising now that there is this whole schism between the academic feminists (big on inclusion) and ‘mumsnet feminism’, but which makes sense to me as I have much cherished colleagues in the former group whose beliefs I don’t share. They’re focused on inclusion, I come from a safeguarding perspective.

But what is this ‘sin page’ referred here quite a few times? Does it have to do with criticisms of KJK?

Thanks Clog. That piece by Maya was very interesting.

A key theme running through criticisms of the “populists” in the magazine is disapproval at calling-out the behaviour of male sexual deviants in dresses, and at “othering” people who pretend to be the opposite sex.

But this is the dark heart of what we have not been allowed to talk about. Pronouns are rohypnol. Language is an evolved, hard-wired risk-appraisal protocol. So too is the ability to see things, say what we see and recognise patterns. The moral disgust reflex is part of this. So too is laughter and ridicule.

This might well account for at least some of the gulf between women like KJK and JCJ and the 'Brighton feminists'.

The element of fetishisation does seem to divide people. (I personally believe it's the driving force behind the entire movement).

Maya also talks about the different approaches to the issues. Some involving theory (of evolution, patriarchy, etc) and some of a more practical slant (I don't want perves in my loos).

I wonder if the tediously prosaic nature of AGP and men's sexual gratification in general, is just too low brow for some feminists. 'Is this really just a boner thing?'

Kellie's campaigning is shot through with the premise that these men deserve contempt and, similar to places like Kiwi Farms, the assumption that the creepiness is built in.

Perhaps that attitude is just not clever or deep enough?

It certainly would never allow her to call them esteemed, along with famous feminists.

I'm a big fan of simplification. If you want to communicate, you have to make people understand what the bloody hell you're saying.

To me, there no merit in helping after helping of word salad if you've no idea what you've eaten when you're done.

Which is why 'Is this really just a boner thing?' might just be the entire meal.