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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jane Clare Jones on purity spirals

1000 replies

IamSarah · 12/01/2024 11:26

Really insightful post on X the platform formally known as Twitter I feel it's worth sharing on here:

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1745760345954689255?s=46&t=NGJBRqkXgp1UazF5I8yjXA

OP posts:
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31
Hepwo · 13/01/2024 17:33

You have probably made the most posts in this thread! On something you only read yesterday apparently.

I usually skip Ryan's posts as they always start off so badly.

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 17:33

Who polices the Internet though? Far worse content out there than that....

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 13/01/2024 17:33

I dont understand this obsession with KJK. There are a countless people who've worked to introduce laws and policies into school and colleges with aim to remove womens rights and child safeguarding, but posie is the person who some are trying to discredit?

nothingcomestonothing · 13/01/2024 17:35

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 16:07

Look at hewpos post two above yours, for what I mean in a context that's nothing to do with me.
Unpleasant and rude. Because a group on here have decided Sarah and the Brighton feminists (whatever that means) are the wrong kind of feminist.

That's how I read it as someone new to the JCJ/KJK argument.

JCJ wrote this:

the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists..... It is also a practical political problem for the many women who are working diligently behind the scenes to try and ensure that the likely next government will listen to them

It is the Brighton feminists who have done what you are saying some here have done to them. You've got it the wrong way round. JCJ claimed (offering no evidence) that other GC women were merging with Christian nationalists/ white nationalists and making it harder for her and her colleagues to beg for scraps that Labour might decide to throw them do their own work. It is that group casting aspersions on GC women not in their clique, and some posters here responding to that.

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 17:39

I really don't understand how her observation leads to thinking she is "casting aspersions".
If you know the backstory, maybe, but on face value no.
I agree with her and also I know first hand that when one tries to provide evidence it leads to even more aggression and personal attacks. So I don't blame her for not providing evidence.

I'm not really intending to go round in circles, I found some of her points interesting and worthy of further discussion but it seems to have got very polarised very quickly so not possible to do that.

IamSarah · 13/01/2024 17:42

Ridiculous. Internet squabbling at its worst. Waste of energy too which could be used for positive actions

Agreed. It was posted as an explanation of why sisters salon did not join the SFW event over a year ago and is now buried in the SS website with no reason for anyone to see it unless it gets re-shared. Very different to repeatedly Tweeting defamatory lies to over 100k people which is what has been happening to Sisters Salon the last few days.

But anyway that wasn't the reason I started the thread. I genuinely thought JCJ's post was interesting and insightful. I liked the first comment she got, 'sorry but this is dangerously sensible.' I thought it was self-reflective, an olive branch and seemed like a positive vision for getting through the ridiculous squabbles.

OP posts:
AlisonDonut · 13/01/2024 17:47

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 13/01/2024 17:33

I dont understand this obsession with KJK. There are a countless people who've worked to introduce laws and policies into school and colleges with aim to remove womens rights and child safeguarding, but posie is the person who some are trying to discredit?

She doesn't do what the head girls want. She goes and gets her hands dirty whilst they stay safe in their offices.

She nearly got fucking killed last year and still they cannot just leave her alone.

They are worse than TRAs. I am ashamed to have ever put any funds to The Radical Notion and have my name attached to the first edition.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 13/01/2024 17:51

Youdontgivemeflowers · 13/01/2024 15:48

It’s because of your scathing personality Tinsel, that the trans widows movement hasn’t got off the ground. Everyone is afraid of you. Loads of trans widows won’t go anywhere near you. And nobody will offer an alternative because of fear of attacks from you. You need to stop being so abusive to people you don’t like

Is this how a JCJ X thread starts before she deploys the coloured pens of doom?

It's a bit more succinct & direct, granted, but at least highlights the baseless narrative that explains why TWVs are blocked from platforms by those orgs rife with the virtue signalling socfems with one eye on an election & not upsetting the apple cart.

How unbelievably immature and frankly pathetic of those who have pushed this narrative to prevent others from hearing more from women who don't need a degree in gender studies to point out the abusive nature of men who lie, gaslight, coerce, groom & abuse those around them to 'become their authentic selves' or whatever euphemisms are current for the feeding of a paraphilia out of control.

I find it interesting that this is how a woman who will not ever compromise her integrity is described within certain circles. Says more about those 'terrified' of her.

Hepwo · 13/01/2024 17:51

I genuinely thought JCJ's post was interesting and insightful.

The waffle about white supremacists is entirely made up though.

These women have fed this white supremacists bullshit relentlessly to aggressive left wing men worldwide, and last year these left wing men got very close to killing Kellie Jay in NZ as a result.

So your piety is misplaced. Save it for your Salon.

Hepwo · 13/01/2024 17:53

They are worse than TRAs. I am ashamed to have ever put any funds to The Radical Notion and have my name attached to the first edition.

Me too.

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 17:53

Just going to summarise the bit I found insightful, because I know some people found the tweet dense:

The basis for this objection [taking platforms, or any kind of financial support, or engaging in joint legal action or publicity, with either Christian or white nationalists] is about the concern that a movement originally grounded in the defence of the interests of women and gay and lesbian people could be co-opted by people who are hostile to the political interests of women and homosexuals.
I agree with this because I've observed MRAs coopting feminist positions and twisting them to be anti women. It is a known tactic and leads to the "but when is International Mens Day" type rubbish.

For many feminist women this is a problem. They fear that the energy of the UK GC movement could be fed into the hands of very powerful, and increasingly dominant, populist forces who will use that against women and gay people and also ethnic minorities.

And I agree with this. In the past we've had the Erin Pizzey/Cassie Jaye type scenario where women who claimed once to be feminist become sympathetic to the MRA agenda and generate headlines/undermine feminist efforts. Personally I can see how populist movements are using the GC concerns to advance agendas that damage women.

As a movement, we have spectacularly failed to discuss either these sets of concerns in anything resembling a calm and sensible manner and have failed to extend good faith to each other over legitimate points of contention. That makes me personally very sad, and politically, I think we are all very much the poorer for it. and yes, bang on. Too much time spent arguing over points of difference in a black and white way, not enough focus on common good actions to support women.

Hepwo · 13/01/2024 17:56

Scraped a couple of barrels there Adam.

IamSarah · 13/01/2024 17:57

I agree @AdamRyan I also thought it was bang on. Thanks for the summary.

OP posts:
EasternStandard · 13/01/2024 18:00

But so much of this is actually doing what is in that post

The continual complaining about FWR not being ‘right’

Setting up pages against KJK

nothingcomestonothing · 13/01/2024 18:01

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 17:39

I really don't understand how her observation leads to thinking she is "casting aspersions".
If you know the backstory, maybe, but on face value no.
I agree with her and also I know first hand that when one tries to provide evidence it leads to even more aggression and personal attacks. So I don't blame her for not providing evidence.

I'm not really intending to go round in circles, I found some of her points interesting and worthy of further discussion but it seems to have got very polarised very quickly so not possible to do that.

the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists

You don't think that asserting that GC twitter has merged with Christian/ white nationalists is casting aspersions? It didn't read as a compliment to me. I'm not on twitter and didn't have the context of the row about 'platforming' a TW, but her tweet read as maligning other women campaigning for women's rights to me.

And to say that providing evidence of ones claims 'leads to even more aggression and personal attacks' seems a bit convenient to me, quite aside from the fact that I understand JCJ is an academic and therefore well used being required to provide evidence to support her theses. If there is evidence that GC= white nationalists on twitter, I'd like to see it.

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 18:02

IamSarah · 13/01/2024 17:57

I agree @AdamRyan I also thought it was bang on. Thanks for the summary.

Thank you for posting it! I'm not on twitter much but maybe I should be. I wonder ifin fact having to respond to other women "in person" might lead to a (slightly) more civil debate

pickledandpuzzled · 13/01/2024 18:03

There must be something about our own experiences that colours what we read. I see the ‘let’s stop squabbling’ part and agree with it, but then see ‘but we need to be terribly careful those awful people don’t think we like them/we’re like them/we find their other beliefs palatable.’

I find that so rude. I’m a Christian. If I find myself in a social justice march alongside a Muslim and an atheist, I feel no need to point out that ‘of course I don’t believe what you believe/think you’re wrong about God/am really sad you are going to hell.’

ArabellaScott · 13/01/2024 18:03

TrainedByCats · 13/01/2024 12:58

AdamRyan

She also called a bunch of archaeologists "woke" recently for using standard forensic archaeological techniques and as a scientist I find that quite alarming! Science is not "woke"!

I’d not heard anything about this so just went to read about it. You’ve misrepresented the context somewhat, and as a non British origin woman my opinion of Badenoch has risen after reading her remarks and the context. The researchers sample size was risible, if that’s standard forensic archaeological technique it’s anything but scientific.

Edited

For reference.

https://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/news/2023/12/heritage-professionals-respond-to-woke-archaeology-claims/#

'From a sample of 145 skeletons taken from London plague cemeteries, the museum’s researchers concluded that Black women of African descent were more likely to die of plague. While acknowledging the small research sample, the team said that these higher death rates may show the impact of “premodern structural racism”.'
...
'Forty-one individuals were identified as having died of the plague, and out of 19 female victims, four were found to have likely been of mixed heritage and three of African descent.'

Heritage professionals respond to ‘woke archaeology’ claims - Museums Association

Museum of London research on plague victim ethnicity has faced criticism in parliament

https://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/news/2023/12/heritage-professionals-respond-to-woke-archaeology-claims#

ArabellaScott · 13/01/2024 18:07

I thought it was self-reflective, an olive branch and seemed like a positive vision for getting through the ridiculous squabbles.

Sincerely, OP. It is none of these things.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 13/01/2024 18:10

Ironically, its probably the most read and most quoted tweet JCJ has ever written.

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 18:10

nothingcomestonothing · 13/01/2024 18:01

the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists

You don't think that asserting that GC twitter has merged with Christian/ white nationalists is casting aspersions? It didn't read as a compliment to me. I'm not on twitter and didn't have the context of the row about 'platforming' a TW, but her tweet read as maligning other women campaigning for women's rights to me.

And to say that providing evidence of ones claims 'leads to even more aggression and personal attacks' seems a bit convenient to me, quite aside from the fact that I understand JCJ is an academic and therefore well used being required to provide evidence to support her theses. If there is evidence that GC= white nationalists on twitter, I'd like to see it.

But this is just a logic thing
Saying GC spaces have attracted white nationalists/Christian fundamentalists is not the same as saying all GC women are white nationalists/Christian fundamentalists. Its basically saying this, in words.

https://deadwildroses.com/2019/10/07/handy-venn-diagrams-the-radical-feminist-position-on-gender/

Some people are anti gender politics because they want to protect women. And some are anti gender politics because they have religious views that define "women" and "men". And some are anti gender politics because they are supremacists who think white people should be in charge of everything so any critical analysis of any kind of oppression threatens them. That isn't new, or rocket science.

I think she's just trying to say GC women should be aware not all GC people share the same motivations, and be careful about where they put their investment of time.

Handy Venn Diagrams – The Radical Feminist Position on Gender

Visit the post for more.

https://deadwildroses.com/2019/10/07/handy-venn-diagrams-the-radical-feminist-position-on-gender

pickledandpuzzled · 13/01/2024 18:13

Now I feel the need to clarify I’m not a right winge evangelical Christian, marching with the westboro’ Baptists!

Just an ordinary middle of the road CofE kind of person, happy to work with anyone who wants to make the world better for everyone.

EmpressaurusOfTheSevenOceans · 13/01/2024 18:17

At the inaugural meeting of the LGB Alliance, I remember Stephen Fanshawe, one of the founders of Stonewall from the days when they actually gave a fuck about LGB rights, talking about how they operated. He said that with any group, they’d find the one point they had in common and work together on that.

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 18:21

ArabellaScott · 13/01/2024 18:03

For reference.

https://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/news/2023/12/heritage-professionals-respond-to-woke-archaeology-claims/#

'From a sample of 145 skeletons taken from London plague cemeteries, the museum’s researchers concluded that Black women of African descent were more likely to die of plague. While acknowledging the small research sample, the team said that these higher death rates may show the impact of “premodern structural racism”.'
...
'Forty-one individuals were identified as having died of the plague, and out of 19 female victims, four were found to have likely been of mixed heritage and three of African descent.'

While nothing specific is known about the individuals’ lives, the team say many women of colour would have worked in domestic service and experienced race and sex-based discrimination. As a result they would have faced significant hardships and greater risk of disability, which would have made them more vulnerable to disease.

“[The plague] is portrayed as being an indiscriminate killer, but we actually know it wasn’t,” said Redfern. Previous studies have shown those who experienced poor nutrition in the famine that preceded the plague had a higher risk of dying from the disease.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/21/women-with-black-african-ancestry-at-greater-risk-when-plague-hit-london

Still at a loss to understand how a study into plague deaths in the 16th century, that used standard scientific techniques to show a disproportionate number of skeletons of plague victims were black women, and suggested this could be because of their social status, is "woke".

Entirely uncontroversial I would have thought.

Women with Black African ancestry ‘at greater risk when plague hit London’

Experts studying remains of victims buried in 14th century say bubonic plague was not an indiscriminate killer

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/21/women-with-black-african-ancestry-at-greater-risk-when-plague-hit-london

EmpressaurusOfTheSevenOceans · 13/01/2024 18:21

And to be fair, Tinsel is only really scary if you get between her & her morning cuppa.

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