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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jane Clare Jones on purity spirals

1000 replies

IamSarah · 12/01/2024 11:26

Really insightful post on X the platform formally known as Twitter I feel it's worth sharing on here:

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1745760345954689255?s=46&t=NGJBRqkXgp1UazF5I8yjXA

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
TheClogLady · 13/01/2024 13:55

LoobiJee · 13/01/2024 13:25

Thanks for sharing.

“Keen began to eschew left-wing feminism, arguing it is more concerned with appeasing its socialist masters than standing up for the sex-based rights of women and the protection of children.”

It’s hard to disagree with that analysis.

Especially as JCJ acknowledges that (concern about any risk to future influence with a Labour government post-election) herself in the OP’s Twitter thread.

There is a Savage Minds podcast episode with Heather, Kellie Jay and host Julian Vigo too.

it’s about a year old (December 2022) but I’m going to give it a re listen while spray painting some shelves this afternoon:

https://savageminds.substack.com/p/kellie-jay-keen-and-heather-brunskell

I vaguely remember it being quite a fun listen, considering the topic!

Sometimes I wonder if we should attempt a backstory megathread that brings together all the relevant previous threads and various off-site blogs so that the next time the Gentry Feminists/Head Girls and their friends make a new thinly disguised statement on the same old topic we can just point at the megathread and back away.

I personally believe that everyone can partake in this fight in whichever manner they chose, none of us need be associated with each other and the smaller the org, the more direct action can get done.

Once an org gets big it becomes more meetings than action, so I appreciate all the small orgs and projects that have sprung up along the way, whether they be woman-focused, LGB (or L or G or B) focussed, safeguarding and children focussed, sports focussed, prisons focussed and on and on.

Kellie-Jay Keen and Heather Brunskell-Evans

S2E45

https://savageminds.substack.com/p/kellie-jay-keen-and-heather-brunskell

TinselAngel · 13/01/2024 14:03

I personally believe that everyone can partake in this fight in whichever manner they chose, none of us need be associated with each other and the smaller the org, the more direct action can get done.

I think pleas for "unity" always favour those with power.

TheClogLady · 13/01/2024 14:10

I think that’s true, Tinsel.

Trans Widows Voices is a great example of a small org with a clear directive unspoiled by endless, pointless, word salad.

TinselAngel · 13/01/2024 14:25

TheClogLady · 13/01/2024 14:10

I think that’s true, Tinsel.

Trans Widows Voices is a great example of a small org with a clear directive unspoiled by endless, pointless, word salad.

I don't have the patience for it to be anything else.

TheClogLady · 13/01/2024 14:25

😆

RethinkingLife · 13/01/2024 14:28

none of us need be associated with each other and the smaller the org, the more direct action can get done.

There's a fairly recent name for this (familiar) concept, minilaterals. Minilaterals are small cooperative networks (of various size, from a clutch of people to nations) aligned by values or strategic needs and who shape their interactions, peer learning, and policy agendas.

This is a discussion of minilaterals in the context of digital technology but it captures the concept well, explaining upsides and downsides.

…several characteristics of minilaterals. These forums have tended to be informal, discussion-based, often led by government officials with specialised expertise, and built on individual relationships of trust among their members. This informality grants them perceived advantages such as speed, flexibility, modularity, and room for experimentation, which, we argued, were qualities further enhanced by the use of digital technologies in their modes of work. The low profile Digital Nations (DN) group has showcased the benefits of such characteristics in advancing collective knowhow on digital public services, developing the trust between members required to cooperate on thorny areas of innovation, from digital IDs to responsible implementation of AI within the public sector.
The flipside of this informality is often a little discussed lack of development in the prosaic, technical aspects of minilateral design. Many minilateral groups lack a secretariat or collective budget, posing challenges for decision-making, funding allocation, and institutional memory—how organisations remember what has worked or not before. The G7, a significant gathering of major industrial democracies, lacks a permanent secretariat. The organisational capacity of I2U2 is also limited in governance structure and staffing commitment. 3SI has reportedly struggled to maintain momentum between summits. For minilaterals to foster effective long-term technology cooperation and help nation-states navigate an environment of rapid technological change, they must now address crucial questions and trade-offs regarding organisation, governance, accountability, and global positioning.

https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/08/01/2024/era-tech-minilaterals-here-will-they-prove-effective

Sarah Pedersen has, of course, referred to mumsnet FWR as a subaltern counterpublic.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4478528-theyve-got-an-absolute-army-behind-them-womens-cooperative-constellation-in-Scotland

Home | DIGITAL NATIONS

https://www.leadingdigitalgovs.org/

MidCenturyLangClegs · 13/01/2024 14:32

So..... this is a really long thread. Have the Brighton women had an event where they upheld a trans identifying male as their pin-up woman?!

TinselAngel · 13/01/2024 14:32

So when me and Kate Colman get pissed together we're "forming a mini-lateral"?

Datun · 13/01/2024 14:33

Placemarking.

(Partly to see the upshot KJK's comment about RISE.)

RethinkingLife · 13/01/2024 14:35

TinselAngel · 13/01/2024 14:32

So when me and Kate Colman get pissed together we're "forming a mini-lateral"?

The very best sort of mini-lateral if it involves a few songs and snacks although other options are available.

Maya Forstater says Sex Matters arose from 3 women and a laptop.

TheClogLady · 13/01/2024 14:38

MidCenturyLangClegs · 13/01/2024 14:32

So..... this is a really long thread. Have the Brighton women had an event where they upheld a trans identifying male as their pin-up woman?!

Naw, they had an event that didn’t actually feature any TW but then tweeted about a TW who attended in an approving manner, (‘esteemed guest’).

Esteemed TW guest is a semi regular contributor to GB news so if we use the Brighton yardstick, JCJ is now a cryptofascist 🤷‍♀️

TheClogLady · 13/01/2024 14:39

TinselAngel · 13/01/2024 14:32

So when me and Kate Colman get pissed together we're "forming a mini-lateral"?

Can I come along next time please? 🍷

(I’m still sad that Covid prevented us from attending that TRA talk at MMU!)

TinselAngel · 13/01/2024 14:40

Can I come along next time please?
Of course! We can even wear the false beards.

DrBlackbird · 13/01/2024 14:45

in a liberal democratic society it is important to respect the rights of all people to hold their own views, act in accordance with their own values, and express their political ideas

Rereading this tweet, (italics added) I’d agree on it being important to respect the rights to hold views and to respect the right to express political ideas, as we’ve not seen a lot of that in relation to the #nodebate GI. But respecting other’s rights to act on those values, no. Certainly not always and not when rights conflict as they often do. It’s the acting on the views and values without due consideration of the wider implications that have led us here.

pickledandpuzzled · 13/01/2024 14:45

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 12:39

My issue with her is she wants to redo the whole equality act and some of the stuff she says makes it sound as if she fundamentally disagrees with the idea that people can be oppressed on the grounds of race. She is (in my opinion) using GC feminist concerns around definition of biological sex to enable her to scrap the whole thing.

I think the EA has been a force for good as it protects several disadvantaged groups from discrimination, including women. So I think that she's quite dangerous for women.

She also called a bunch of archaeologists "woke" recently for using standard forensic archaeological techniques and as a scientist I find that quite alarming! Science is not "woke"!

Thanks for this, I’ll know what to look out for

I’m really uneasy when I see people like her and Suella having their colour used against them, as though they are obliged to feel and believe certain things in solidarity with other people of colour.
It’s like seeing the ASD cohort falling out over whether it’s a superpower or not.

TheClogLady · 13/01/2024 14:46

TinselAngel · 13/01/2024 14:40

Can I come along next time please?
Of course! We can even wear the false beards.

I wish I could knit.

Sensitive content
Jane Clare Jones on purity spirals
EasternStandard · 13/01/2024 14:47

RethinkingLife · 13/01/2024 14:35

The very best sort of mini-lateral if it involves a few songs and snacks although other options are available.

Maya Forstater says Sex Matters arose from 3 women and a laptop.

Edited

I bet. She’s a legend

pickledandpuzzled · 13/01/2024 14:53

TheClogLady · 13/01/2024 14:46

I wish I could knit.

This was flagged as sensitive content. I know the rib is a little uneven, but it’s not that bad!

Separately- we need to establish an FWR institutional memory.

We need a time line of key moments, like when particularly important banishments occurred, and the board splitting and so on.

RebelliousCow · 13/01/2024 14:56

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 11:41

I don't "identify as" a feminist, I am a feminist.
Same as I don't "identify as" a woman, I am a woman.

I might be misunderstanding your point. I assume most religious people don't "identify as" their religion but feel its a core part of who they are.

Bur feminism has as many definitions as there are women who identify as such. If it is entirely predicated on the oppressor/oppressed dyamic - then for me it is an ideological construct like any other, and no more an indicator of truth or reality.

Earlier on you said you thought i was prejudiced against women of other cultures and backgrounds. I'm not. But I don't accept that just because someone is from a supposedly 'oppressed' group that I must shut up and not question or critique anything they say or any beliefs they may adhere to. For me, feminism is about recognising and honouring what unites us all as females - the shared or common experiences and honouring and giving voice to that. Those things tend to be related to our experience of living in a female body and the things that flow from that.

Melroses · 13/01/2024 14:59

TinselAngel · 13/01/2024 14:40

Can I come along next time please?
Of course! We can even wear the false beards.

I have my own beard.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 13/01/2024 15:02

TheClogLady · 13/01/2024 14:46

I wish I could knit.

I've got a knitting/mending to-do list as long as my arm, but I've put "beard for ClogLady" on the end of it. Make sure to PM me some contact details in 2027, so I can get it to you.

TinselAngel · 13/01/2024 15:02

I think we can all grow our own beards by 2027

SerotinaPickeler · 13/01/2024 15:20

That reminds me, my chin is a bit prickly, must find the tweezers (waves to Germaine)

TinselAngel · 13/01/2024 15:36

I can't even remember why Clog and I were going to wear false beards. Maybe we were disguising ourselves as Stephen Whittle?

Youdontgivemeflowers · 13/01/2024 15:48

It’s because of your scathing personality Tinsel, that the trans widows movement hasn’t got off the ground. Everyone is afraid of you. Loads of trans widows won’t go anywhere near you. And nobody will offer an alternative because of fear of attacks from you. You need to stop being so abusive to people you don’t like

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