First time poster - question about GC beliefs

[lovelycosyslippers]

This is my first time posting on this board. I am trying to work out what my position is in the trans/gender debate.

If you hold gender critical beliefs, do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body, and have a right to live as the other sex (up to but not including the point where it would impinge on the rights of that other sex), possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery? Is this a coherent position to hold?

Or do you believe these people should not ever be supported to live as the opposite sex? That doing so is always wrong?

Hope this question makes sense!

I think anyone can believe whatever batshit crazy things they want, you can’t control people’s thoughts and you’d be mad to try.

I don’t think people do have the “right” to live as the opposite sex, because no man should be wasting medical time getting a smear or woman getting a prostate exam and really “living as a man/woman” only really comes into play when you get down to the biological functions, otherwise we’re all just living our lives.

I think people can wear what they like, as long as they don’t expect anyone else to pretend they’re something they’re not. But I should also have the right to find a man in women’s clothes ridiculous, the same as I would if a colleague showed up to work in a clown suit and make up.

There's no such thing as "born in the wrong body" but it is typical of the over dramatic language from people suffering with Histrionic personality disorder. I'm a woman but I guess I don't live as one because I don't wear high heels and a mini skirt.
JK Rowling put it succinctly and she gets rape and death threats daily.

I can understand wanting to be the opposite sex.

What I don't understand is how a gender identity can "match" a sex. If you ask people why "woman" matches "female" they can't answer. Because then they have to acknowledge that their definition relies on the concept of there being something inherently female about a woman.

If you don't like your body just say so. You don't need to invoke a gender identity that assumes men and women have distinct personalities.

To me it's simple. Where sex matters, be honest about it. Where it genuinely doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

Even those suffering from extreme dysphoria do not tend to find all of their anxieties are relieved in the longer term by attempting to " pass" as the opposite sex. One can never really be the opposite sex and this fact will always present itself and cause a desgree of dissonance. It is particularly difficult for men to 'pass' as women'; plus radical surgery is a drastic step to take, and one from which there is no return.

I certainly do not think we should be pushing this idea of being" born in the wrong body" onto children. That is gross negligence as far as I am concerned. The process of ego and identity development in childhood and adolescence is often difficult enough without encouraging a belief in the impossible and the unachievable.

"Living as the opposite sex" is founded purely on streotypes and is essentially meaningless; though of course in our society people are largely free to dress how they please and change their name if they so wish. Being a woman is not an identity or a performance - it is biological and psycho-social lived reality.

Women have dignity as adult human females, along with the rights to privacy and safety in certain circumstances on accunt of their sex.

(1) "passing" as the opposite sex to a casual observer,
I find the word 'passing' deeply offensive, it suggests something insidious

A question I have is where are all the late transitioning women? It seems to be young girls and middle aged men. Why is there not broadly a similar number of middle aged women aggressively claiming to be literal men and getting angry than there are men doing so?

Basically my instinct is to attempt to find an intellectually coherent middle ground, accepting of those who genuinely have body dysmorphia but protecting women's spaces. It's difficult!

i think the vast majority of women here were in that place early on. Surely there is a compromise that would please everyone?? But there really isnt

PP have posted about third spaces and why they aren’t going to be answer because TRA won’t accept them. I’d also consider what has also been said (by Datun I think!) that it’s not the spaces per se, it’s the women in the spaces. We are props to a male fantasy. A women’s space with no women in it is worthless to a TRA

I don’t believe it’s possible to be born with a gender identity that doesn’t match with your sex.

I accept that some people do believe that they have a female brain in a male body (and vice versa) but that seems incredibly sexist to me (wtf is a female brain? A pink one? 😬)

I am not convinced that helping those people change their bodies to look more like bodies of the opposite sex is actually good for them (suicide is more likely post-transition, not pre) but I accept that in a liberal society not everything we do has to be good for us.

I am horrified at the doctors who enable medical self harm and believe that in years to come transing people’s bodies (especially children and teens) will be seen as outdated and as barbaric as lobotomy.

Ultimately, men can dress as they choose and call themselves whatever they like, but they should never be allowed to use their personality or dress sense as an excuse to trespass on female only spaces, services and sports.

Ultimately, I’m a gender atheist. I don’t really care if some people wear funny outfits and chant nonsensical things, but I would prefer religious ideology to be kept out of schools, including Gender Identity Ideology.

(I have a much loved teen in my own household who currently IDs as the opposite sex, well, a strange, cartoonish version of the opposite sex. The same teen has a number of other comorbid conditions including a terrifyingly restrictive eating disorder that manifests using the trappings of gender, ie boobs are fatty tissue so not eating = no boobs and low body weight = no periods, which is supposedly fine because ‘I’m a boy’. It’s heartbreaking and no teacher or school counsellor is willing to look past the gender woo woo and see the obvious self harm. Thankfully trans is starting to fall out of fashion within the friendship group with several now desisting, so I suspect it will be over as soon as 6th form college is in June)

Another thing that gets glossed over by the be-kinds is that if you think you are a man or a woman because of the type of feelings/brain/ personality you have, you completely change the definition of gay/ straight. Even Stonewall will no longer say that being gay means being attracted to the same sex.

Hi OP
As others have posted, the mythical, mission creep trans / dysphoric foot in the door has a lot to answer for.
In addition to the problems with men being admitted to single sex female specific prisons, rape crisis and refuges, there’s also the experience of the trans widow to consider.
Many men are middle aged transitioners, married with children who “come out” to their partner who is then supposed to put her life to one side in favour of supporting her ‘brave’ husband.

You can read more on their website https://www.transwidowsvoices.org/ and also the long running support thread on Mumsnet https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4879982-trans-widows-escape-committee-6-the-next-generation
What these women have been through and are going through is appalling. It is often an abusive relationship, with a controlling male partner.

Because there is no sexual aspect to women identifying as men, and because women of a certain age are too old and wise to fall for the idea that you can simply identify out of female oppression and into male privilege.

Yes, if a pub pretends cheap cola is Coca Cola or RandonRussianishWord vodka is Smirnoff it’s known as ‘passing off’

https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/intellectual-property/passing-off#:~:text=Passing%20off%20takes%20place%20when,of%20person%20from%20other%20traders.

If you don't agree that being male or female is what makes you fall under the description of man or woman, then what does? Is there a single criterion that differentiates between men and women under this ideology? Because literally no-one can ever name one.

Actually, there was a TW on here who (I assume genuinely? ) answered questions and stated that nearly all women have one type of sort of "feminine" personality, and men another type of personality. Because this person felt more feminine and unlike the men they saw growing up, that was proof they were actually a woman.

Great posts. And for anyone who thinks 'why not third spaces? Surely that would solve everything', please google 'Mumsnet Third Spaces' and see how often it has been suggested and shot down in flames as transphobic and othering by the TRA's who like to come here to scold women for daring to talk about this.

You come to realise that there is no compromise or reasonable work around or balancing of needs. Complete and utter capitulation by women is the only acceptable solution, it seems.

And for anyone who thinks 'why not third spaces? Surely that would solve everything', please google 'Mumsnet Third Spaces' and see how often it has been suggested and shot down in flames as transphobic and othering by the TRA's who like to come here to scold women for daring to talk about this.

You may find a petition from a few years ago, there are a few honourable transwomen who know they're male who do want this. One is Miranda Yardley - notable also for having a ridiculous case brought against him (and rapidly thrown out of court) for... transphobia.

Helen Joyce's book 'trans' is only a tenner on Amazon. Worth it's weight in gold.

"If an individual did these things, but stopped short of entering single sex only spaces or competing in single sex sports, for example - would that be ok to a GC feminist?"

YES! None of those things effect other's around them, so 100% fine by me.
the second you start imposing on other's it becomes a massive issue imo, because then it's a case of one person's feelings trumping the other's right to privacy and dignity.

When we have "Trans Women" filming TikTok's of themselves going "Omg ew where does this even go?!!!" " Ew look at ittttt, how does this even worrrrrrk, omg I can't wait to get my perioddddd!" whilst holding Tampons and acting disgusted while also fascinated, or claiming that they're getting period cramps, that affects our dignity as women - And when you're doing that and then entering our spaces where we could be having an especially heavy bleed, or god forbid a miscarriage. Women do SO much more in bathrooms than men do, and the very fact that they don't understand this is evidence in my mind that they probably should have their own spaces.

a) We can't be arsed
b) It wouldn't give (most of us) a sexual thrill

Great thread.

I have nothing to add that hasn't been said but just wanted to acknowledge all the excellent comments on here: yes, everyone has the right to believe that that have a gender identity, but not the right (thankfully now underpinned in law) to coerce others to believe or express that they do. Anyone who believes that they have a gender identity and suffers from a feeling of distress in relation to this deserves evidence-based help to unpick why they feel this way.
But it's also important to recognise that a significant number of men feign that they have a belief in gender identity in order to satisfy their fetish.

Thankfully the harms that are being done to children through their confusion about this (sometimes still enforced) belief, particularly during puberty, are being recognised by a growing number of politicians and policy makers.

I hope that other newbies stumble across the thread because I think there is a lot of useful thinking and explanation in here.

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic your comment struck a chord with me. We have managed to stop short of this stage so far but it does sometimes feel still like it could head that way. I hope that what is happening in the public discourse will shift quickly enough for your son. Vulnerable children and young people are still caught up in an awful mess ATM 😔

To quote JK Rowling:

"Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?"

There are a handful of male transsexuals who behave the way you describe, OP - ‘transitioned’ as far as is possible (ie penectomy & castration), use feminine names but stay out of female-only spaces, wear what they like and don’t insist on wrong-sex pronouns…

The shit they get from transactivists is at least as bad anything us terfs get, perhaps worse. They are called ‘Uncle Toms’ ‘Traitors’ ‘Pick Mes’ ‘Scabs’ ‘Quislings’ etc.

(Miranda has already been mentioned upthread, Miranda was literally taken to court for ‘transphobia’, despite Miranda being a post op transsexual (and a thoroughly decent bloke, as it happens).

I’ve got a good friend who is religious. I’m atheist. She has her beliefs, I have mine. We know what the other thinks. We accept we have different paths. It’s ok.

I once knew a bloke who claimed he’d had alien encounters. I mean, I can’t even entertain the possibility that that’s genuine even though he seemed to believe it.

I worked with a kid who told us every morning someone appeared in the car at the side of him and his mum wouldn’t entertain the idea he might be having mental health issues because she believed in ghosts and she thought it was true 🤷‍♀️

People believe all sorts of things, other people don’t. There’s only trans ideology where there’s a huge drive to make everyone believe the same thing no matter how impossible it is, with threats and sometimes violence.

Why do you think that is?

Wow my first deletion I assume for using the Malaga Airport word.

I remember trying to square the genuine dysphoric/women’s rights circle, after a while I realised that transactivism/gender identity ideology is really very shit for the exact sort of transsexuals I imagined we were trying to accommodate:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6764763/amp/Britains-transgender-hate-crime-trial-halted-one-day.html