First time poster - question about GC beliefs

[lovelycosyslippers]

This is my first time posting on this board. I am trying to work out what my position is in the trans/gender debate.

If you hold gender critical beliefs, do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body, and have a right to live as the other sex (up to but not including the point where it would impinge on the rights of that other sex), possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery? Is this a coherent position to hold?

Or do you believe these people should not ever be supported to live as the opposite sex? That doing so is always wrong?

Hope this question makes sense!

I have a question for lovelycosyslippers.

If a teenage girl is in a car crash and is hospitalised and needs intimate care (sponge baths, toileting/wiping, tapon/pad changes etc.) is it OK, in your opinion, for them to request single sex care and for that care to be by genuinely female nurses only?

A second question.

Where have all the transvestites gone?

This is a really important point.

I feel that women were coerced into agreeing that trans women should be in women's spaces because, poor trans women, it must be so difficult living with such debilitating dysphoria and at the same time being so vulnerable around other males, and so we should learn to put aside any discomfort we might have about sharing single sex spaces with male people and make room for them.

Then once the principle that genuine, vulnerable, truly dysphoric, wouldn't harm a fly trans women should be allowed in women's single sex spaces was established, the lobby groups set about removing all these qualifiers. We now have a situation where mainstream politicians will go on record saying that male rapists should be housed in women's prisons if they feel that best suits their gender identity, and that there should be no requirement for someone to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria in order to change their legal sex. And suddenly we're a very long way from the sweet, gentle, terribly distressed and dysphoric hypothetical trans woman we started with.

This kind of creep is absolutely typical of this movement and we see it as well with language.

First they were transvestites. Then they were transsexuals. Then they were transgender. Then they were trans women, but they all assured us that no one was confusing sex with gender. Then it was trans women are women and now it is trans women are female. So we've gone from transvestites to the female penis, and women no longer having any words for themselves at all, except in very specific contexts where we may be permitted to refer to ourselves as people with cervixes or menstruators. But we are not allowed to have a word to describe ourselves as a sex class which includes all female people and excludes all male people.

It is important to recognise this pattern because if we do not, we risk becoming the metaphorical boiled frog. We start off thinking about a reasonable compromise, and the water is only slightly warmer than we are really comfortable with, but then before we know it we are being boiled alive.

It's tricky because those of us who have been embroiled in this debate for a while now are rightly sceptical about whether any compromise is possible because we have seen what happens when we give an inch. But I think newcomers to the debate have to experience it for themselves. Because they see us hardened "TERFs" over here and they think we are being very black and white about it all, but they haven't seen the journey we've been on to reach that position, where all the compromises we have offered have been met with further demands or rejected out of hand.

Totally agree with this also. It's not possible to be born in the wrong body, no matter whether you feel you're in the wrong body, it is actually just your body and you dislike it for whatever reason. If someone wants to pay out their own pocket to change their body, and they are an adult, go for it (although I think this should go along with counselling and a lengthy informed consent process). I don't think cosmetic surgeries should be funded on the NHS without considering why someone thinks their body is wrong.

I can't live as a millionaire because I'm not one.

You could live as a millionaire without being one, by spending money you don’t have. But that would be fraudulent …

I think people should wear what they want and use whatever name they like. If I knew then as their 'old' name it might take me a while to remember the new one. But I'll do it.

So will I, except when it comes to very close relatives. I can’t do this for my son, and it is causing huge tensions in our family. He has gone from saying “I’m calling myself this” to “this is my name” to “you have to accept me as who I say I am”. Somewhere in that process it became intolerable for me - because healthy relationships are not based on coercion, pretence and dishonesty. I can live with a relationship based on pretence if it’s not a close relationship. I do not accept my son as a daughter, because that is not reality, and it denies our shared past. I will always accept him, because he is my son. If he won’t accept that this is where my boundary is, he has the option of cutting himself off from me. But I will be waiting desperately for him to accept that he is still my son, for as long as I live.

To slightly misquote another poster here, my history is that I have a son. That is (part of) my identity.

Holy shit, Margot, that's a fantastic post.

And made me think of this...

Haha yes, you've just summed up my post with a single meme.

I'm a 2nd wave feminist. I reject all notions of Gender Stereotypes while acknowledging that there are differences between the sexes that mean that only women can give birth etc.

So the concept of "living as the other sex/gender" is utter piffle - since you would only then be reinforcing a gender stereotype. People should wear what makes them comfortable that doesn't infringe cultural or legal indecency norms.

There are good reasons for having single sex spaces and that should be enshrined in law. Humans cannot change sex. On a personal level I'm relatively happy to use your chosen epithet or pronoun s long as you understand that if you are a man who wishes to be called Barbara and she/her - my using those names/pronouns doesn't mean that i believe you have changed sex. Any attempt to compel or bully me will have me going back to Steve and he/him in nanoseconds.

Nepeta’s point is a really important one.

“I believe that these questions should be asked of the transgender activists, i.e., are there any compromises at all, short of us redefining 'woman' to have nothing to do with being of the female sex, that they would accept.”

from @ArabellaScott

I really think it's important to look at this phrase:

to live as the opposite sex

And ask oneself what that actually means.

I will believe that people such as India Willoughby and Freda Wallace honestly believe they are living as women when they go to Afghanistan and live like Afghan women. And not one second before.

For me anyone who believes something (they are too fat when they are clearly anorexit, a woman when they were born a man, etc) have mental health issues that need to be addressed by mental health professionals. They deserve sympathy and understanding. But most of all they deserve treatment to address their mental health issues.

Thanks everyone. I will read and digest properly later, just dealing with the kids' bedtimes at the moment.

@Waitwhat23 😂😂😂that was me that was my kind skin was finally pulled of when a few here welcomed me to terfdom, was a happy day.

The intellectually coherent ground is that there are two sexes. Not one person has changed sex and if a man thinks he is 'living as a woman' then he is deluded and needs some sort of therapy.

There isn't a middle ground as soon as you start trying to play make believe.

Absolutely.

Third spaces is the perfect example of this.

Loads of people who are mildly gender critical, and even people who consider themselves trans allies and think "TERFs" are terrible people, are in favour of additional, unisex spaces being provided for people who for whatever reason don't feel able to use single sex spaces for members of their own sex.

But try suggesting that to your average trans activist and see what happens. You will be told, "No, third spaces are othering and force us to out ourselves. If they existed, I wouldn't use them, I would continue to use the spaces which align with my gender identity, as I do now."

My evolution from "we should provide additional third spaces" to "we should just make it a criminal offence to be caught in a single sex space for members of the opposite sex" was caused by having that exact conversation once too often.

I also really hate the idea that this stuff is boy’s stuff and this stuff is girl’s stuff.

I hated it when I was told I couldn’t do the things I wanted because it was “for boys” and I hate it even more now it’s morphed into “if you like that have you thought you might really be a boy.”

Yes, you're right. I possibly could live as a millionaire. I'm a crap liar, and wouldn't know where to start. But I could try. I'd probably get caught though. Although I could tell the judge I self ID as a millionaire, and therefore I am a millionaire. And be kind.

Also I'm sorry to hear what you are going through with your son. That must be very difficult. I don't actually know how I'd feel if my sons wanted to change their names. I chose them because I love them.

Replying to the op and not reading full thread:

People can believe what they like. I don't think that gives them 'rights' beyond the right to believe it. Ie. I can believe I'm a qualified pilot but that doesn't give me the right to fly a plane or sit in the pilot's lounge. Or to demand everyone pretends I'm a pilot too. Separating 'self' from body is a completely spiritual belief and should be treated as one not as a fact.
On the other hand if they just mean they relate more to the opposite sex's customary practices and appearance then carry on. I think gender stereotypes are totally harmful and ludicrous and should be broken down! Women and men should dress and assume what roles they like. This doesn't make anyone a different sex, although if you want to use gender to mean social customs, then sure, it means you can swap genders.
And re. stereotypes, saying you know what the opposite sex feels like or how they think, is playing massively into stereotypes. You feel like a woman? Which one? We all feel differently, as differently as one human from another. All we have in common is a bit of biology which can only be mimicked by surgery and hormones, in the same way youth can only be mimicked by them. Can transgenderism exist without relying on stereotypes? I don't know.

I'm afraid this part was also where I realised that using women, non consenting women, and excluding the ones who couldn't be used, is the goal.

Not an accessible space.

This is the problem. On the surface it seems so possible and easy to find nice answers. And then you start to examine it, and it's very complicated and increasingly grubby as you peel back layers.

Do I feel that men should ever be able to use non consenting women and exclude others with their presence if the woman isn't privileged enough to be ok in mixed sex spaces? Even if the male is very sad and distressed? And there's no escaping the grotty reality that many males are not sad and distressed. They are very, uhm, excited. And stimulated. In their use of women. In a state of undress and vulnerability.

Do I feel that women should have to ever be subjected to that?

No. No, I absolutely do not. I am not going to look any little girl in the face and tell her that her birth right is that she must submit to that so that a male can be happy in claiming that sex does not exist. By which he means is not presenting him with any boundaries to his choices and experiences. Her choices and experiences are not of any interest to him.

Do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body?

Accept that they believe it? Yes, in some cases. Accept that it's true or that people ought to 'be kind' and behave as if it's true even if it isn't? No. To me it's a belief on the same level as believing Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour. I will accept the belief; I will support your right to hold the belief, but I will reject very firmly any attempt to coerce me to speak or act as if I too believe it.

and have a right to live as the other sex

This is meaningless to me. If it means 'live according to culturally masculine or feminine stereotypes and claim this makes them the opposite sex' then they're free to do so but I'd find it offensive. Much as I would if someone claimed to 'live as another race' by enacting racist stereotypes.

possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery?

If they pay for it themselves, it's none of my business. I don't think taxpayers' money should be spent on any of it. I'd support NHS counselling for people suffering from gender dysphoria.

Or do you believe these people should not ever be supported to live as the opposite sex? That doing so is always wrong?

Not wrong so much as impossible. I don't think anyone can 'live as the opposite sex' so I think that 'support' which tells them that they can is ultimately unhelpful.

A few years ago I'd have said that if you're a man who wants to wear a dress and makeup, go ahead, nothing wrong with it. I still think men should be free to do this without harassment. However, I no longer think it's the equivalent of a woman wearing trousers, because of the number of men for whom it is fetishistic. If dressing up in any outfit is a fetish for you, do it in your own home, not in public.

Needless to say, no male person, however they think of themselves or whatever modifications they have made to their body, should be in women's spaces. Even very nice harmless men. My dad is a nice harmless man but I wouldn't bring him in women's facilities - because although I trust him completely, to other women he's a total stranger. Women's spaces aren't prizes for men who are nice, or feminine, or vulnerable. They're for women.

I used to be in the “dress how you want” camp, but for some of these middle aged males it is so clearly a fetish, and I’m being forced to participate in it without my consent. Even if they’re just walking down the street and not in our single sex spaces, a 60 year old bloke wearing a mini skirt, stockings and prosthetic breasts is publicly flaunting a fetish and that is harmful.

I don’t think there’s a way to stop it (other than bringing back shaming!) but honestly no I’m not OK with it.

This about covers it all.

The whole to what extent is it acceptable to involve a non consenting other in your personal self expression is a very significant one here.

It is like saying 'do you accept that some people believe that 1 equals zero?'

They might believe it, but it is untrue as if it were true, it would completely break the whole of mathematics.

It's a Helen Joyce concept and it holds the line.

I don't think we have good evidence that surgery and medical transition helps anyone.
I do accept that some people believe they are born in the wrong body. People believe all sorts of odd things and I don't believe in reincarnation either.
If "living as the opposite sex" means a man wearing a dress and calling himself Daphne then I can't stop him, though I don't think it's appropriate to dress in your fetish gear in public.
If he's demanding we call him a woman and let him use our changing rooms he can sod right off.

Of course. Nobody cares what someone wears. Most/many of the women here are old embittered hags life-long feminists, gender non conforming, many lesbians and bisexuals, and many of us remember the eighties and have lived roughly happily alongside what used to be called 'transvestites', back before such men decided that actually they were really truly women just like us and were entitled to avail themselves of the spaces and rights our foremothers fought for.

@AlisonDonut Helen was being super clever saying that. It is something to do with factorial maths where nought is 1 for certain purposes in maths. Frankly i could never get my head around that concept, this is the Joyce genius - she is being straight and ironic at the same time. It’s like her own private joke, IMO, but i could be wrong.