Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

[WarriorN]

Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/

You see, Frood, just as we have to accept that the wafer is literally the body of christ, we have to accept that a child's understanding of their sex is literally material reality.

Yes I agree with you. You call it “sex identity” , I use the term gender but we are talking about the same thing.

You’re now defining the word “gender” as “understanding of sex”. So is that its definition now? Why not say understanding of sex?

And if gender is defined as understanding of sex, given sex is immutable and can’t be changed, if a person’s “gender” ie understanding of their sex is wrong, then by your definition, all transgender identities are wrong.

Again you may call this “wrong” , but if it can’t be changed it is what it is.

Sex can’t be changed. But misunderstanding about one’s sex can, because it happens all the time. Have you actually met any children?

So there is no such thing as gender identity then? It’s just misnomered sex identity?

we have to accept that a child's understanding of their sex is literally material reality.

all we have to accept is that a child’s understanding of their sex is - exactly that - *a child’s understanding of their sex. Sometimes a child’s understanding of their sex may be different to other peoples understanding of their sex.
thats it. This happens.

Then the question becomes, what do we do about it?
Do we call these children “wrong” and mentally ill , and try to change their understanding of self to fit with our own ? We can do this. The evidence shows this causes profound harm , in the same way that it causes profound harm to try to change a person’s sexuality .

No idea what you mean by “misnomered”. It doesn’t matter what language we use, people have different preferences. What matters is that we can all agree what we are talking about. What I call “gender identity” you apparently prefer to call “sex identity”. I personally have no issue with this, if it enables us to advance the conversation to more of a point of mutual understanding.

The evidence shows this causes profound harm

Telling them what?
What evidence?
What profound harm?
Which type of child?

I would like to see your working.

Well it does matter, because trans activists claim that gender and sex are not the same thing. You’re saying they are the same thing and are interchangeable. Which is it?

You mean this?

[It's] determined by a complex interplay of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences.

Well, yes, there are many of these things at play when a child decides that they have a gender identity.

For example:
Hormonal: Puberty seems to be a trigger for a lot of girls.
Environmental: Abuse or an unstable family life seems to be a trigger for a lot of trans-identifying children.
Genetic: Children with autism seem to be more likely to identify as transgender.

None of this means that gender identity is real.

Also @Tandora I would be genuinely interested in your feedback on how I have positioned the belief that we all have a gender identity in the screenshot that I included. I'm yet to find a believer to test this on. Does it sound like a fair representation of what you believe?

I have whistleblown anonymously in work about a) the misrepresentation of the Equality Act in my work's policy (thankfully this has now been updated) and b) the teaching of gender identity as fact in both mandatory and voluntary training. I haven't pushed hard on point b and it still remains open and unresolved as a whistleblowing case. They are currently discussing it... and by that I suspect that they are currently hoping that they can ignore it. I'm still considering when to push more on this, and will be using the document that I wrote for the school to expand upon what I have already raised about the difference in beliefs. The recent LGBT inclusion workshop that I attended demonstrates what an uphill battle I have on that, particularly as there was a very obvious influence from the Malaga Airport side of things represented in the attendees. My main priority is on schools ATM but at some point I'm intending to pick it up again.

Someone’s natal sex and someone’s understanding of their sex is not the same thing.

I’ll try one more time.

Natal sex is designated at or before birth, based on observations of genitals and sometimes sex chromosomes.
A child’s understanding of their sex (aka gender) develops overtime. This is a process of development that all children go through. For most children their understanding of their sex (aka gender) corresponds to their natal sex , for a minority of children it does not. We don’t know why this happens, but this is likely to be due to a complex mixture of chromosomal, hormonal and environmental factors (as per development of sexuality).

Why are there so many comorbidities amongst children thinking that they've been born in the wrong body @Tandora ? Eating disorders, self harm and suicide ideation, trauma related issues, autism spectrum related issues and more.

Why have transactivists been so desperate to influence children's health & psychiatric care? (see Gendered Intelligence at GIDS, Stonewall in schools, Global Butterflies at Great Ormond Street and countless other groups).

What is it that some adults find is so appealing about persuading children they're the born in the wrong sex? To the extent that whistleblowers at GIDS exposed the unforgivable overshadowing of children's other mental health comorbidities by focusing on trans issues. Thus resulting in these children becoming adults with all their serious mental health problems going intreated (hence the closure of GIDs).

So Tandora, if some people are born with the wrong 'gender identity' can you explain all the middle aged men who suddenly magically develop a 'women' gender identity after watching too much sissy porn?

Gender identity ideology assumes that 'woman' is something other than just being an adult female. Some magic inner essence all women supposedly have, which is made up bullshit so some men can claim their feelings or appearance makes them one.

There are 2 sexes. Even if gender identity was a thing, why should men with a 'gender identity' be allowed access to female only spaces etc because they are still male.
Why are we expected to ignore their sex and pretend they magically pose less threat than all other men just because they want to wear a dress?

You didn’t answer my question. You’ve just repeated that the word “gender” is interchangeable with “understanding of sex”.

Are they interchangeable? And are trans activists who claim gender and gender identity are different to sex wrong?

Really confused with a child's confusion about their own sex. It is manifestly obvious which sex you are so any confusion is on a psychological level and therefore psychology is definitely a consideration in these cases.

If a boy feels like a girl what does this actually mean? Do they feel their anatomy should be somehow different in which case there may have to be an adjustment to reality or does it mean I like dresses, makeup and handbags in which case they are freely breaking a gender stereotype which has absolutely no bearing on sex.

If someone feels like they are in the wrong body then I am afraid therapy may be an option. If a child thought they had they should remove a finger because it felt 'wrong' we certainly wouldn't give into demands to remove the finger; we should seek appropriate psychological help and hope the child overcomes their difficulties. Why should a different argument be made about genitals?

Sex is an immutable biological fact. As humans we cannot change this A wish to be a different gender is based on a social construct of gender which is ill defined and we simply cannot base policy on such an ill defined concept.

A wish for a boy to be a girl or vice versa should not lead to compromise of single sex spaces or sport in a school environment or forcing adults to use sex pronouns that they quite rightly think are wrong. You are effectively forcing educated adults to accept a fake reality and we cannot do this to people.

I would be ok if we moved back to using sex identity instead of gender, as Tandora says they’re interchangeable. If someone, adult or child, says:

”I don’t believe my sex identity is correct”

then a working starting point is “well your sex is what it is and can’t be changed, so let’s look into why you feel it’s wrong and see what we can do about that.”

Instead we are told that “my gender identity doesn’t match my sex” which means there is still a nebulous concept of gender identity to be defined.

Tandora seems to be saying people who say the latter have it wrong, what they mean is “my understanding of my sex doesn’t match my actual sex”. Have you told trans activists this, Tandora? Has it been well received?

I am answering your question. I’ve answered it several times. It is getting tiresome.

Gender/ understanding of sex / sex identity , whatever you would like to call it , is different to (natal) sex as observed based on chromosomes or hormones.

All children have a gender/ understanding of sex/ sex identity (whatever you would like to call it). This develops over time (none have it in the womb).
For most children their this understanding of sex (gender or sex identity) will correspond to their sex as observed based on their hormones or chromosomes. For a minority it will not. This is what “trans activists” (whoever you are referring to with that monolith) mean by being “transgender”.

Children with eating disorders are steered away from pro ana sites etc where their disordered thinking is reinforced. Children with suicidal ideation are protected from the dangerous online sites where suicide is celebrated. Children with anxiety and depression are steered away from people and places that provoke anxiety (doom scrolling, alarmist material, conspiracy theories etc).

Yet children (so many of them girls displaying clear signs of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria} are directed to adults who are completely uncurious about this evidenced social contagion, have zero experience of parenting / child development and psychology but are happy to promote puberty blockers, surgery and the rest to them.

The differences in how we safeguard these mentally vulnerable children from harm is stark. Why do you think that is @Tandora ?

Quick update to correct myself on something I said earlier. I was going through my notes on the consultation and it wasn't Robin Moira White who was trying to argue that a cubicle was the same as a room, it was someone called Peter McLaughlin.
RMW has raised other objections and just seems to be in a general huff about it all:
https://www.cypnow.co.uk/news/article/new-trans-guidance-for-schools-is-unlawful-barrister-says

Here is the specific mention of cubicles/stalls, including it being corrected by Michael Foran:
https://twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1737436893854179367?t=4ADw0t5iWuZNmJ1rFv_TwA&s=19

Ok, so you’re saying there is no separate gender identity. There’s only understanding of sex, and some people their understanding - or more accurately - their acceptance of their sex is wrong. This is what some people mean to be transgender. More accurately it would be transsexual.

I would agree. I believe there is a tiny population of people who cannot reconcile with the sex they are and struggle with that.

But unfortunately trans activists have tried to convince us all there is a separate gender identity which is different to how you’ve defined it. How are you going to convince the trans community they’re wrong?

@Tandora

Then the question becomes, what do we do about it?
Do we call these children “wrong” and mentally ill , and try to change their understanding of self to fit with our own ? We can do this. The evidence shows this causes profound harm , in the same way that it causes profound harm to try to change a person’s sexuality .

How should we deal with gender dysphoria?

I would say we should do randomised controlled trials, and until that happens we are experimenting on children without really knowing what we are doing.

Without proper research, how are we going to know what approach is better at minimising harm?

Imo, it should be considered a mental health condition; but it's borderline in that having a gender identity that conflicts with biological sex isn't necessarily impairing or distressing, although it apparently very often is.

Why are there so many comorbidities amongst children thinking that they've been born in the wrong body-

Because it’s incredibly painful and difficult to have an understanding of one’s own sex, that is at odds with one’s birth sex.

Why have transactivists been so desperate to influence children's health & psychiatric care

Because anyone who is knowledgeable about issues affecting trans children, and who cares about their wellbeing, knows that with the right health and psychiatric care trans children can thrive. The consequences of the wrong (or no) care on the other hand can be devastating.

What is it that some adults find is so appealing about persuading children they're the born in the wrong sex

Aside from a very few mentally ill individuals (perhaps those with diagnosable Munchausen or narcissistic personality disorder) I don’t believe anyone finds this appealing. This is not what advocating for health care for trans children is about. This is your perception of what it is about based on ignorance (sorry to be blunt but I don’t know what else to call it) and misunderstanding.

This is not what advocating for health care for trans children is about. This is your perception of what it is about based on ignorance (sorry to be blunt but I don’t know what else to call it) and misunderstanding.

The entire basis of the affirmation model for children is to affirm the belief they are born in the wrong body. This is exactly what so-called healthcare for “trans” children is about. There are doctors and activists and children themselves who have said it out loud. Have you been living under a rock?

A thought on popular culture of the last 10 years. Women seem to have been asked to dress in revealing clothes with surgery and nudity normalised (think a certain media family). Love island etc. Those teenage girls that don't buy into that have little alternative. We had Suzie Sux, Annie Lennox etc. I despair at every young pop star strutting in her knickers. This is a retrograde step for women.
My daughter uses a boys name but I hear nothing now re transitioning. This ideology ruined her teenage years. She (which she accepts) is someone who rejects sexualisation of women and young girls. She left university due to the harassment she and her cohort experienced. Clothes are just clothes. Transwomen/men are just marketing terms without full surgery which for men remains very low (2000 approximately). The most chilling thing I ever read was the transactivists desire to create a prepubescent hybrid.
What you do after 25 is your business before that we need to protect developing minds

There’s only understanding of sex, and some people their understanding - or more accurately - their acceptance of their sex is wrong

Again, the designation of “wrong” adds only value judgement. It has no scientific (or moral) value.

But unfortunately trans activists have tried to convince us all there is a separate gender identity which is different to how you’ve defined it

honestly, how I have explained this issue to you is perfectly in line with transactivism. You just haven’t understood what “gender identity” actually means.

You are evidently still struggling with the idea when you make statements about what is (right or ) “wrong” or correct (how people “are”) or incorrect .
Put the value judgements down, and approach the question logically and descriptively.

• There is (natal) sex which is assigned based on observations of genitals and chromosomes, at or before birth.
• there is a person’s understanding of their sex which develops over time (starting in early childhood around the age of 3).
• mostly these are aligned. Sometimes they are not.
• We can ask “why”, but we don’t know. Arguably the more important question is what do we do about it?