Page 14 | Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

ArabellaScott · 23/12/2023 09:56

Very concerning to see that so many children who are gender questioning have a history of CSA. Another reason any concerns about 'identity' should probably be considered a safeguarding issue. These are vulnerable children with complex needs, who need sensitive support and care.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/12/2023 10:01

ArabellaScott · 23/12/2023 09:56

Very concerning to see that so many children who are gender questioning have a history of CSA. Another reason any concerns about 'identity' should probably be considered a safeguarding issue. These are vulnerable children with complex needs, who need sensitive support and care.

Yes. The over representation amongst gender questioning children of children in care of the State, children who have suffered a bereavement & CSA and of course all those on the autistic spectrum is testament to how dangerous this ideology is to children.

OldCrone · 23/12/2023 10:35

Tandora · 23/12/2023 09:54

The term "gender identity" used to be used to mean a child's understanding of what sex they were. It was used that way in academic papers about child development

Yes this is exactly it. It is the same for transgender children. It’s just for trans kids, their understanding of their “sex” differs from the understanding of their sex designated to them at (or these days sometimes before) birth - usually on the basis of genitals (or sometimes chromosomes).
This is rare, but it happens.
You might not like that this happens , but it is very much real and people, including children like this, have existing throughout history in all cultures.
You may want to insist that a person’s gender (understanding of their sex) is based on their genitals (in line with society at large) but this is as harmful as insisting their sexuality is defined by their genitals (as we used to and still do in many parts of the world). You cannot change a young person’s sexuality and you cannot change their gender. This is deeply harmful and wrong; it is dehumanising, degrading and cruel and it leads to terrible outcomes.

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If some children "know" that their sex is different from their actual biological sex, what are they basing their knowledge on?

Children know what sex they are because they are told by adults what their sex is, which is based on their genitals.

For these special children who "know" they "are" the opposite sex from their bodies, where do they get this knowledge from? It's not from the adults around them, so it must be something they just make up. Or is there some divine intervention or something? And what is this essence of being that is the opposite sex to their actual bodies?

Tandora · 23/12/2023 10:50

OldCrone · 23/12/2023 10:35

If some children "know" that their sex is different from their actual biological sex, what are they basing their knowledge on?

Children know what sex they are because they are told by adults what their sex is, which is based on their genitals.

For these special children who "know" they "are" the opposite sex from their bodies, where do they get this knowledge from? It's not from the adults around them, so it must be something they just make up. Or is there some divine intervention or something? And what is this essence of being that is the opposite sex to their actual bodies?

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This is a very good question and one we don’t yet have the answer to. Recently there has been some research that suggests a role for both chromosomes and hormones, but the science is in its infancy.
How is people’s sexuality determined? Again there has been some research on this, but we don’t have any simple answers. the best understanding we currently have is that sexuality is determined by a complex interplay of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences. The same is thought for gender. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29460079/
These questions are important, but regardless of questions of aetiology - which may take some time and advanced scientific and medical technologies to answer - what we do know is that some children develop a gender (understanding of sex) which is at odds with their birth sex. “transgender” is the word used to describe this phenomenon . We know that this is a phenomenon which has existed throughout time and across cultures. We also know that children’s gender identity is likely to be highly resistant to change and that it can be deeply harmful to attempt to try (again v similar to sexuality).

The Biological Contributions to Gender Identity and Gender Diversity: Bringing Data to the Table - PubMed

The American Psychological Association defines gender identity as, "A person's deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or a male; a girl, a woman, or a female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29460079/

BonfireLady · 23/12/2023 10:51

Thinking a bit more about the BBC article on legal challenges, the stage that I'm at in my own conversations with my daughters' school is particularly interesting.
I had shared guidance that I had been given by another Mumsnetter, which is in place already in her local authority. I had also written a briefing document that could be used to brief the Senior Leadership Team and governors, covering what had changed since this guidance was put in place. A screenshot of my redacted briefing document to the school is below - I have shared the part about beliefs on a different thread previously but this is it in full.

It has been discussed (in my absence) in the SLT meeting and the most recent communication that I have had says that everything is currently with the school's lawyers. I'm assuming that this means that they were intending to adopt it, subject to agreement from the governors, and were just validating the legality. The (senior) members of staff with whom I was liaising were as sceptical as me that the continuously promised government guidance would actually materialise! I'm glad we were all wrong.

I'll be sharing my consultation feedback with the school and it will be interesting to hear what their lawyers said about the guidance from the other local authority. The draft government guidance is even better, but there are also many similarities.
I'm waiting to hear back about a meeting date in the new year to discuss everything, particularly to get clarity on what the school intends to do (and I will have sent them a copy of my feedback on the government guidance before then too). The discussion that I'm having with them goes wider than this because it also covers the PHSE/RSE materials.

But specifically on the legal points, this will be interesting. Individual schools will need to make their own decisions on what to do. I'd guess that many will choose to adopt whatever the DfE puts out and that their lawyers will help them to construct their policies in such a way that as much legal risk as possible is flowed through to the DfE, rather than being held by the school.

Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

OldCrone · 23/12/2023 10:51

Tandora · 23/12/2023 09:44

Yes, your children have a gender identity. It is perfectly normal and expected by age 3. Most children develop gender constancy- a permanent sense of their gender by age 6: https://srcd.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2007.01056.x

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Link to the full text:
https://archives.evergreen.edu/webpages/curricular/2007-2008/psychologyofgender/files/psychologyofgender/Gender%20Constancy-Ruble%20et%20al%202007.pdf

This is what I said on an earlier thread where someone claimed that this paper showed that gender identity is real and nothing to do with sex.

It's clear that the authors aren't actually talking about 'gender identity' as an identity which has nothing to do with one's sex, it's talking about 'sex identity', in other words, the understanding a child has that they are male or female, and that this is a fixed attribute (my bold).

One of the most compelling yet controversial ideas in the gender literature is ‘‘gender constancy.’’ As proposed by Kohlberg (1966), children’s developing understanding of the permanence of categorical sex (‘‘I am a girl and will always be a girl’’) is a critical organizer and motivator for learning gender concepts and behaviors. Slaby and Frey (1975) demonstrated that children move through a series of stages: first learning to identify their own and others’ sex (basic gender identity or labeling), next learning that gender remains stable over time (stability), and finally learning that gender is a fixed characteristic that is not altered by superficial transformations in appearance or activities (consistency). Thus, children are thought to reach a full understanding of constancy once they recognize that they will always be the same sex, across time or change in situation (e.g., a boy who puts on a dress and a long-haired wig is still a boy even though he resembles a girl). These stages have been confirmed in other research, including cross-cultural studies (e.g., De Lisi & Gallagher, 1991).

This is from an article by Katie Alcock (child development specialist) about how the language has changed over time:

What this also means is that terminology has changed. When this area of research first started, everyone knew, and was clear, that they were talking about children’s knowledge of biological sex. The terms “sex identity” and “sex constancy” were used, to mean children’s knowledge of whether they were a boy or a girl, and whether they or others could change into the opposite sex. Around the 1990s everyone started getting squeamish about the word “sex” and started using “gender” as a euphemism. Researchers, however, still meant a child’s knowledge of biological sex.

That paper doesn't seem to contain any evidence for what you are claiming.

BonfireLady · 23/12/2023 11:08

Attempting those screenshots again as they were blurry.
Also, this Guardian article popped up in my news feed about the potential legal challenges that schools may face (apologies if it's already been put in a comment and I missed it. It was from 2 days ago but updated this morning to amend the headline):

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/schools-in-uk-face-legal-risks-if-they-follow-new-transgender-guidance

OldCrone · 23/12/2023 11:12

Tandora · 23/12/2023 10:50

This is a very good question and one we don’t yet have the answer to. Recently there has been some research that suggests a role for both chromosomes and hormones, but the science is in its infancy.
How is people’s sexuality determined? Again there has been some research on this, but we don’t have any simple answers. the best understanding we currently have is that sexuality is determined by a complex interplay of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences. The same is thought for gender. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29460079/
These questions are important, but regardless of questions of aetiology - which may take some time and advanced scientific and medical technologies to answer - what we do know is that some children develop a gender (understanding of sex) which is at odds with their birth sex. “transgender” is the word used to describe this phenomenon . We know that this is a phenomenon which has existed throughout time and across cultures. We also know that children’s gender identity is likely to be highly resistant to change and that it can be deeply harmful to attempt to try (again v similar to sexuality).

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Full text here for anyone interested.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Isabel-Esteva/publication/323261652_The_Biological_Contributions_to_Gender_Identity_and_Gender_Diversity_Bringing_Data_to_the_Table/links/5c66cecca6fdcc404eb43ad5/The-Biological-Contributions-to-Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Diversity-Bringing-Data-to-the-Table.pdf

How is people’s sexuality determined? Again there has been some research on this, but we don’t have any simple answers. the best understanding we currently have is that sexuality is determined by a complex interplay of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences. The same is thought for gender.

Everyone has a sexuality. People are attracted to people of the opposite sex, people of the same sex, both or neither.

What do you mean by gender?

what we do know is that some children develop a gender (understanding of sex) which is at odds with their birth sex.

What does this mean? That some children think they are the opposite sex to that which they actually are? That just means they're mistaken. Or do you believe that we all have a gendered soul which has somehow ended up in the wrong body?

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:12

OldCrone · 23/12/2023 10:51

Link to the full text:
https://archives.evergreen.edu/webpages/curricular/2007-2008/psychologyofgender/files/psychologyofgender/Gender%20Constancy-Ruble%20et%20al%202007.pdf

This is what I said on an earlier thread where someone claimed that this paper showed that gender identity is real and nothing to do with sex.

It's clear that the authors aren't actually talking about 'gender identity' as an identity which has nothing to do with one's sex, it's talking about 'sex identity', in other words, the understanding a child has that they are male or female, and that this is a fixed attribute (my bold).

One of the most compelling yet controversial ideas in the gender literature is ‘‘gender constancy.’’ As proposed by Kohlberg (1966), children’s developing understanding of the permanence of categorical sex (‘‘I am a girl and will always be a girl’’) is a critical organizer and motivator for learning gender concepts and behaviors. Slaby and Frey (1975) demonstrated that children move through a series of stages: first learning to identify their own and others’ sex (basic gender identity or labeling), next learning that gender remains stable over time (stability), and finally learning that gender is a fixed characteristic that is not altered by superficial transformations in appearance or activities (consistency). Thus, children are thought to reach a full understanding of constancy once they recognize that they will always be the same sex, across time or change in situation (e.g., a boy who puts on a dress and a long-haired wig is still a boy even though he resembles a girl). These stages have been confirmed in other research, including cross-cultural studies (e.g., De Lisi & Gallagher, 1991).

This is from an article by Katie Alcock (child development specialist) about how the language has changed over time:

What this also means is that terminology has changed. When this area of research first started, everyone knew, and was clear, that they were talking about children’s knowledge of biological sex. The terms “sex identity” and “sex constancy” were used, to mean children’s knowledge of whether they were a boy or a girl, and whether they or others could change into the opposite sex. Around the 1990s everyone started getting squeamish about the word “sex” and started using “gender” as a euphemism. Researchers, however, still meant a child’s knowledge of biological sex.

That paper doesn't seem to contain any evidence for what you are claiming.

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yes absolutely.
This paper is not talking about trans issues at all. This paper is talking about gender identity development amongst gender typical children.
the point is that gender identity is real, it’s a normal part of human development. It has a meaning. It is not an “ideology”. What it means is the development of a child’s understanding of what sex they are.

As I have set out above, this is exactly what we mean by gender identity in the context of discussing transgender children. A child’s gender identity is their understanding of (the permanence) of their sex. What many people struggle to understand - because it is rare and unexpected - is that some children develop an understanding of their sex which does not correspond to the sex designated to them at birth based on observable biological differences such as genitals and chromosomes.

NotBadConsidering · 23/12/2023 11:14

What it means is the development of a child’s understanding of what sex they are

Which as pointed out above, is sex identity. There’s no such thing as gender identity, there is only sex identity which has been misnamed.

OldCrone · 23/12/2023 11:16

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:12

yes absolutely.
This paper is not talking about trans issues at all. This paper is talking about gender identity development amongst gender typical children.
the point is that gender identity is real, it’s a normal part of human development. It has a meaning. It is not an “ideology”. What it means is the development of a child’s understanding of what sex they are.

As I have set out above, this is exactly what we mean by gender identity in the context of discussing transgender children. A child’s gender identity is their understanding of (the permanence) of their sex. What many people struggle to understand - because it is rare and unexpected - is that some children develop an understanding of their sex which does not correspond to the sex designated to them at birth based on observable biological differences such as genitals and chromosomes.

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What many people struggle to understand - because it is rare and unexpected - is that some children develop and understanding of their sex which does not correspond to the sex designated to them at birth based on observable biological differences such as genitals and chromosomes.

So they develop an "understanding" of their sex which is wrong. They are mistaken.

What do you think they're basing their "understanding" on if it's not their physical bodies?

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:16

NotBadConsidering · 23/12/2023 11:14

What it means is the development of a child’s understanding of what sex they are

Which as pointed out above, is sex identity. There’s no such thing as gender identity, there is only sex identity which has been misnamed.

You may call it “sex identity” rather than “gender identity” if you want. Some people call it “subconscious sex”.
Either way, what it describes is the same thing- a person’s understanding of their sex.
Mostly a person’s understanding of their sex will correspond to what is normatively expected based on their genitals or chromosomes. Rarely, it does not,

Froodwithatowel · 23/12/2023 11:18

It’s just for trans kids, their understanding of their “sex” differs from the understanding of their sex designated to them at (or these days sometimes before) birth

Oh for pete's sake.

If you're going to state this religious ideology as fact then people are going to flatly explain to you that no, this is absolute nutjobbery.

Sex is. It's a fact. That's the end of it. It's fixed and unchanging, and will be identifiable for as long as DNA can be extracted from the remains.

There is no such thing as a 'trans kid' as the guidance makes very clear.

Gender is a lot of emotion and ideas based on stereotypes, and can vary enormously under different cirumstances and over time.

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:19

OldCrone · 23/12/2023 11:16

What many people struggle to understand - because it is rare and unexpected - is that some children develop and understanding of their sex which does not correspond to the sex designated to them at birth based on observable biological differences such as genitals and chromosomes.

So they develop an "understanding" of their sex which is wrong. They are mistaken.

What do you think they're basing their "understanding" on if it's not their physical bodies?

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What do you think they're basing their "understanding" on if it's not their physical bodies?
Again, please see my response above on the aetiology of gender identity development.

You can call people “wrong” and “mistaken” if you like, but I’m not sure what Scientific (or moral) value that adds to the conversation. It is what it is.

Froodwithatowel · 23/12/2023 11:20

"And there's definitely a hell and we all definitely have guardian angels. It is what it is."

And we wonder why the kids are so confused.

On the plus side, it's a perfect real time example of why this confused ideology presented as absolute fact should be kept out of schools.

Apollo441 · 23/12/2023 11:21

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:12

yes absolutely.
This paper is not talking about trans issues at all. This paper is talking about gender identity development amongst gender typical children.
the point is that gender identity is real, it’s a normal part of human development. It has a meaning. It is not an “ideology”. What it means is the development of a child’s understanding of what sex they are.

As I have set out above, this is exactly what we mean by gender identity in the context of discussing transgender children. A child’s gender identity is their understanding of (the permanence) of their sex. What many people struggle to understand - because it is rare and unexpected - is that some children develop an understanding of their sex which does not correspond to the sex designated to them at birth based on observable biological differences such as genitals and chromosomes.

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So stereotypes then. This has nothing to do with their sex.

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:22

Froodwithatowel · 23/12/2023 11:18

It’s just for trans kids, their understanding of their “sex” differs from the understanding of their sex designated to them at (or these days sometimes before) birth

Oh for pete's sake.

If you're going to state this religious ideology as fact then people are going to flatly explain to you that no, this is absolute nutjobbery.

Sex is. It's a fact. That's the end of it. It's fixed and unchanging, and will be identifiable for as long as DNA can be extracted from the remains.

There is no such thing as a 'trans kid' as the guidance makes very clear.

Gender is a lot of emotion and ideas based on stereotypes, and can vary enormously under different cirumstances and over time.

If you're going to state this religious ideology as fact then people are going to flatly explain to you that no, this is absolute nutjobbery

When the conversation descends to this, there’s not much value in considering.
Happy to consider thoughtful contributions to the points that I have set out above.

Take care.

NotBadConsidering · 23/12/2023 11:23

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:16

You may call it “sex identity” rather than “gender identity” if you want. Some people call it “subconscious sex”.
Either way, what it describes is the same thing- a person’s understanding of their sex.
Mostly a person’s understanding of their sex will correspond to what is normatively expected based on their genitals or chromosomes. Rarely, it does not,

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”Normatively expected”. You mean what they actually are?

“Rarely it does not”. So they’re wrong then. They’re understanding of what sex they are is wrong, and it can be corrected. You are male/female.

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:24

Apollo441 · 23/12/2023 11:21

So stereotypes then. This has nothing to do with their sex.

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No , the research evidence suggests that stereotypes have very little , or no, role in the development of gender identity, this goes for both gender typical and trans children.

ArabellaScott · 23/12/2023 11:25

Children often have misunderstandings on matters of fact. Because they are children. Affirming a child's misunderstanding is generally not helpful.

ArabellaScott · 23/12/2023 11:26

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:24

No , the research evidence suggests that stereotypes have very little , or no, role in the development of gender identity, this goes for both gender typical and trans children.

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Amazing. So how do you think these children discover their sacred, innate 'identity'?

BonfireLady · 23/12/2023 11:26

I wasn't going to join in the discussion about beliefs on this thread (I've been in plenty on other threads and it's been helpful for my personal understanding) but I'm curious:

@Tandora do you accept that not everyone believes that we all have a gender identity? If so, do you accept that positioning it as a fact/truth has no place in schools?

Apollo441 · 23/12/2023 11:27

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:24

No , the research evidence suggests that stereotypes have very little , or no, role in the development of gender identity, this goes for both gender typical and trans children.

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Go on then, give me an example of how you could come to the conclusion that your gender identity is at variance with your sex without using a sex stereotype.

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:27

NotBadConsidering · 23/12/2023 11:23

”Normatively expected”. You mean what they actually are?

“Rarely it does not”. So they’re wrong then. They’re understanding of what sex they are is wrong, and it can be corrected. You are male/female.

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Yes their gender (understanding of sex) does not correspond with observable characteristics of sex (genitals or chromosomes etc). .

What I mean by “normatively” is that we “normally” expect that there will be this correspondence , sometimes there is not. Again you may call this “wrong” , but if it can’t be changed it is what it is.

NotBadConsidering · 23/12/2023 11:28

Tandora · 23/12/2023 11:24

No , the research evidence suggests that stereotypes have very little , or no, role in the development of gender identity, this goes for both gender typical and trans children.

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Stereotypes have little to do with sex identity. Young children know they’re a boy or a girl. Children can also sex other humans quickly too. They know who the boys/men are and who the girls/women are.