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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

503 replies

WarriorN · 19/12/2023 10:37

Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/

OP posts:
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25
EasternStandard · 24/12/2023 11:56

There is a crowd funder set up I just googled, but won’t link

If we get into a position where teachers are attacked in this way any hope of safeguarded and factual education is out in schools

anyolddinosaur · 24/12/2023 12:09

At the moment the crowdfunder is just a general one. I will still chip in next month, I've (over) spent all my womens rights money this month but I'll chip in more if he talks about cost of an Upper Tribunal appeal or finds a lawyer willing to sue for defamation/take an industruial tribunal case.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/12/2023 13:18

anyolddinosaur · 24/12/2023 12:09

At the moment the crowdfunder is just a general one. I will still chip in next month, I've (over) spent all my womens rights money this month but I'll chip in more if he talks about cost of an Upper Tribunal appeal or finds a lawyer willing to sue for defamation/take an industruial tribunal case.

At face value, it seems to be an abuse of the DBS system?
We now know that the DBS are very trans activist captured to the detriment of children's safety. When the brilliant KPSS pointed out the loophole that allows adults who adopt a new name to hide their previous name and any convictions under it, rather than DBS saying "thank you, we'll amend that immediately " crickets was the result:

Have a look at this thread where the evident loophole is clearly explained. It does suggest that there are some very self interested individuals in the system determined to exploit what is meant to be a child safety focussed service and may shed some light about why the DBS got involved with this case:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4641046-new-report-from-kpss-on-dbs-checks-where-name-gender-are-changed-the-safeguarding-loopholes-that-creates

New report from KPSS on DBS checks where name & ‘gender’ are changed & the safeguarding loopholes that creates. | Mumsnet

[[https://twitter.com/noxyinxxprisons/status/1573740439055880199?s=21&t=062JTmDfvcPEqwmkM2abiA Link To Twitter Thread]] [[https://kpssinfo.org/db...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4641046-new-report-from-kpss-on-dbs-checks-where-name-gender-are-changed-the-safeguarding-loopholes-that-creates

Name5 · 24/12/2023 14:38

Some crimes are never spent, violence, murder, sex offences.
For the purpose of DBS the applicant is commuting a further crime by concealing them. The issue is Mr Google. If the name doesn't match the gender you won't get far tracking them.

pronounsbundlebundle · 24/12/2023 15:14

This dbs decision means that staff in schools will be reluctant to raise safeguarding concerns about gender questioning kids. Making them less safe.

EasternStandard · 24/12/2023 15:33

pronounsbundlebundle · 24/12/2023 15:14

This dbs decision means that staff in schools will be reluctant to raise safeguarding concerns about gender questioning kids. Making them less safe.

Edited

It’s terrible.

TRAs know if they can get to children half the work is done.

Remove safeguarding, indoctrinate and normalise.

Name5 · 24/12/2023 21:45

@EasternStandard so what are these people looking for?
I ask because I don't get it.
I am very heterosexual, my BFF a lesbian who now likes the boys.
Why is that anybodies business? It's not a educational matter.
Clothes, sexual orientation is different from the idealogy of transgender. It is helping nobody.
You feel more male? I get it, I am not a dolly but I fucking hate bullying men. My DH is fab but do I want a male boss, fuck me no. They hate strong women.
If we don't highlight these creeping influences they are in our families. I really think that they are looking for the next layer of vulnerable partners. And dare I say a hybrid sex partner ( attack me now if you think I am over egging it, you don't have a child who wanted to cut her breasts off!). My family have breast cancer so this shit. If you are gay or genuinely unhappy in your natal sex, I am here for you but I am doubt the latter, you invite a life of pain and abuse. If I'm wrong dm me.

Hurrydash · 25/12/2023 00:42

Name5 · 24/12/2023 21:45

@EasternStandard so what are these people looking for?
I ask because I don't get it.
I am very heterosexual, my BFF a lesbian who now likes the boys.
Why is that anybodies business? It's not a educational matter.
Clothes, sexual orientation is different from the idealogy of transgender. It is helping nobody.
You feel more male? I get it, I am not a dolly but I fucking hate bullying men. My DH is fab but do I want a male boss, fuck me no. They hate strong women.
If we don't highlight these creeping influences they are in our families. I really think that they are looking for the next layer of vulnerable partners. And dare I say a hybrid sex partner ( attack me now if you think I am over egging it, you don't have a child who wanted to cut her breasts off!). My family have breast cancer so this shit. If you are gay or genuinely unhappy in your natal sex, I am here for you but I am doubt the latter, you invite a life of pain and abuse. If I'm wrong dm me.

This👍👍👍

SaffronSpice · 25/12/2023 01:28

DBS is not fit for purpose. They fail to capture crimes committed when people change name, and are now going hugely beyond their remit to declare people unsafe based on their own opinions about something they have no expertise. I hope Kevin takes DBS, not just his employers, to court.

Name5 · 25/12/2023 08:32

Sorry all I was having a rave!
Schools have so much to do. They are not all scientists and particularly biologists. Yet we force them into teaching things that should be discussed at home and widely. Shadows create monsters.
To those going through the trauma of supporting an adolescent with trans issues I wish you a day of peace. Read widely, remain kind to all and vigilant. We are their parents. X

WarriorN · 26/12/2023 08:40

pronounsbundlebundle · 24/12/2023 15:14

This dbs decision means that staff in schools will be reluctant to raise safeguarding concerns about gender questioning kids. Making them less safe.

Edited

Another vitally important factor that needs to go into anyone's responses.

I'm very glad you can see the question document so that it's easier to craft answers and what goes where.

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DC1888 · 27/12/2023 22:42

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/comment/2023/12/27/transgender-school-education-gender-recognition-terf/

Full article;

‘Terf island’ took on trans ideology in schools – and won.

Schools guidance on trans-identified pupils is a significant step forward. But the campaign isn't over yet

Five years after having promised it, and following months of internal struggle over wording, the UK Government published guidance this week for teachers on how to approach pupils who seek to change their gender in schools.

The general principles that frame the UK schools guidance are broadly sensible in their acknowledgement of the need to balance safeguarding, pupil welfare, and biological reality. The document emphasises that safeguarding is a statutory duty for all schools, and that bullying should never be tolerated. But safeguarding does not extend to compelled lies about sex, or withholding information from parents. The document emphasises that parents must not be excluded from decisions about their children, that schools have specific duties related to children’s biological sex, and that there is no general duty to permit “social transition”.

The trans activist lobby group Stonewall promptly denounced the guidance as “legally unworkable” and “contrary to existing equality law”. From the biology-denialist perspective, the mere fact that the guidance is premised on the reality and developmental importance of sex dimorphism makes it “not fit for purpose”. Sex-realist campaign group Sex Matters, on the other hand, cautiously welcomed the document, calling it “imperfect” but nonetheless a “global standard for uprooting trans ideology from schools”.

The guidance has been criticised, including by the former Home Secretary Suella Braverman, for leaving too much to the discretion of schools. Legislation will be needed, she declared, to prohibit “social transition” unambiguously in a school environment. Even so, as both a sex-realist feminist and a mother, the guidance seems to me a significant positive step forward. Though there are evident loopholes that will doubtless be exploited by trans-activist school leadership, the document affords schools and parents alike measured grounds for resisting the institutionalisation of gender ideology in education. I will be making good use of it as an engaged parent.

And for all its weaknesses, by American standards the British schools guidance on gender is a beacon of sanity. In states such as California where gender ideology dominates, schools are obliged by law to propagate gender ideology in teaching materials and school policies. Recently, one California school suspended a pupil for five days for refusing to lie about a fellow-pupil’s sex. California also broadly prioritises gender ideology over parents’ rights: Sen. Newsom recently passed a “sanctuary state” bill granting authorities “temporary emergency jurisdiction” of any minor over 12 seeking “gender-affirming care” against his or her parents’ wishes.

America is already a global outlier on gender ideology. But it is striking to see the USA and UK now diverging so markedly, on a question so fundamental as whether inner identity takes precedence over material reality. Will the British or the American vision prevail? Much depends on the outcome of the 2024 election cycle: the Biden White House centered gender ideology in policy-making, but published policy proposals suggest an incoming Republican administration would seek to re-ground US domestic and foreign policy in biological reality.

Meanwhile, in the UK, the guidance remains in draft form. It will doubtless be the subject of intense campaigning for the next few months by gender ideology activists and sex realists alike. And polls suggest its sex-realist Conservative Party champions face wipeout at the next election. Those with gender critical views are right to welcome this document as a long-awaited step forward; but also to acknowledge that this is only the latest skirmish in a battle with no immediate prospect of definitive victory.

‘Terf island’ took on trans ideology in schools – and won

Schools guidance on trans-identified pupils is a significant step forward. But the campaign isn't over yet

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/comment/2023/12/27/transgender-school-education-gender-recognition-terf

WarriorN · 28/12/2023 06:43

Mary has still skipped over the fact that nowhere acknowledges that adopting a trans identity for some children can indicate other more serious issues and as such be a safeguarding concern.

It helps parents, as she points out, and it protects schools from litigation. Doesn't do much for the child.

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WarriorN · 28/12/2023 07:51

Channeling the much missed R0:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12905027/gender-ideology-crime-against-generation-julie-bindel.html

The statistics show that the town with the most young people referred for gender dysphoria is not trendy Islington or Brighton, but working-class Blackpool.

The seaside resort has a lot of social problems, including very high numbers of children in care, shocking teen suicide figures and a disproportionate amount of children who have social workers supposedly looking after their best interests.

Also telegraph article on social workers influencing children

Social workers 'teaching trans ideology as fact to vulnerable children' http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4964649-social-workers-teaching-trans-ideology-as-fact-to-vulnerable-children

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SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 28/12/2023 17:44

Cailleach1 · 24/12/2023 09:28

I must admit, I’ve never heard a conversation from a four year old talking about wiping their vulva. I’ve never had, or heard, a conversation from any other girl/woman about wiping their vulva. Even with UTI’s etc.

Blinkin’ heck! Four year olds are being lumbered with this ‘gender identity’ stuff now.

Not to derail the thread, but using accurate names for body parts isn't in itself associated with gender ideology. Talking truthfully and precisely about bodies is useful for everyone, and more/ better information on women's bodies is definitely a good thing, both to reduce misogyny and for public health reasons. There are also FWR threads which talk about how children being able to speak clearly about their bodies can be a preventative measure against abuse.

ArabellaScott · 28/12/2023 18:54

Damn it, wrong thread. Sorry!

Hurrydash · 29/12/2023 02:13

Most of this debate is summarised so brilliantly by Ricky Gervais in his two definitions of woke.

In his latest Netflix special Armageddon.

You can see this 3.10 minutes from the end and on onwards.

Some of the rest of the show is quite hard to watch, but the Doctor Doctor joke is just the best!!

Happy New Year all😀

TooManyPlatesInMotion · 29/12/2023 23:46

Totally agree @SelfPortraitWithHagstone . Being able to discuss bodies openly and clearly has nothing to do with gender ideology.

I got tired of my youngest two girls talking about their "bottoms" or "privates" when they actually meant either the vulva or vagina. Just give it its name fgs!

WarriorN · 30/12/2023 07:58

Agree, it's good practise to use proper terms with children. It supports communication around pain, self care, and unfortunately, I was always taught, if a child needs to disclose inappropriate touch.

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rogdmum · 30/12/2023 09:15

The general principles that frame the UK schools guidance are broadly sensible in their acknowledgement of the need to balance safeguarding, pupil welfare, and biological reality.

This is not at all accurate and I’m surprised the Telegraph didn’t pick up on it. The guidance only covers England. In Scotland we have had Scottish Govt school guidance in place since 2021 which tells schools to immediately and unquestioningly support a child’s social transition with no need for parental awareness or agreement.

Not a single political party in Scotland cares about the issue in schools, not even the Scottish Conservatives (the odd Scottish Conservative MSP disagrees with the guidance, but others openly support it and most, including their shadow education minister, stay quiet)

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2023 11:40

While elsewhere Cass, the NHS and Westminster are at least starting to make shaky steps towards sensible guidelines, Scotland is putting its foot down harder as we approach the cliff.

pronounsbundlebundle · 30/12/2023 11:51

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2023 11:40

While elsewhere Cass, the NHS and Westminster are at least starting to make shaky steps towards sensible guidelines, Scotland is putting its foot down harder as we approach the cliff.

Yes, and they'll fall further as a result. You'd think they'd look at what happened with Isla Bryson and perhaps consider that going full force behind an ideology with big safeguarding questions over it in schools might not end well. But no.

I will definitely support any Scottish parents that take legal action. I think it's going to need legal redress in Scotland, unfortunately for Scottish children as this will mean it will take some time to turn around.

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2023 12:10

Meanwhile 15 year old girls in Scotland are still being sent for mastectomy in England, I assume.

rhywlodes · 06/03/2024 00:14

There's a week left on this guidance! Just filled it in. Let's share it with our networks.