Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

[WarriorN]

Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/

The affirmation model really isn’t tied to the “wrong body” narrative at all. The affirmation model simply says:

1. We accept that a child’s understanding of their sex is ok/valid and likely to be highly resistant to change.
2. Rather than try to force a child to feel differently about their sex (which we know can be extremely harmful) we support that child with access to care that can enable them to live comfortably within their own understanding of their sex, whether that is making changes to dress, pronouns or hormonal interventions etc.

Because it’s incredibly painful and difficult to have an understanding of one’s own sex, that is at odds with one’s birth sex.

What do you mean by this @Tandora?

What sort of "understanding" of their sex do these children have? Is it the "understanding" that they should (or shouldn't) have a penis? Or something else?

Is it similar to those people who believe that one of their limbs doesn't belong to them and that it should be amputated because it's not part of them?

Thank you.
So you're saying that thinking you're in the wrong body is the cause of all the all the other mental health issues? How might that relate to autistic spectrum issues?

When you say "with the right health and psychiatric care trans children can thrive" you're stating that children thinking their bodies are wrong is a psychiatric condition?

You are free to call my observations of adult behaviour ignorance. I see it as an evidenced observation of countless trans activist organisations running round schools, nurseries , libraries, sports clubs, museums - anywhere that children gather. These organisations are surprisingly absent from most of the clubs and organisations where adults gather. 🙄

Again, the designation of “wrong” adds only value judgement. It has no scientific (or moral) value.

It’s objective fact. If someone male thinks their sex is female, they are objectively wrong. It has significant scientific value.

honestly, how I have explained this issue to you is perfectly in line with transactivism. You just haven’t understood what “gender identity” actually means.

You haven’t explained “gender identity”. You’ve explained that you believe that gender is just interchangeable with understanding of sex. You haven’t explained what gender identity is outside of this. I have extrapolated that because you think gender = understanding of sex, then gender identity = understanding of sex identity.

This is perfectly in line with some trans activism. But others claim sex and gender are not the same thing and not interchangeable like you claim. How do you square your definition with theirs?

You are evidently still struggling with the idea when you make statements about what is (right or ) “wrong” or correct (how people “are”) or incorrect

I am really not struggling. Some things are fact whether you say them or not. A male who says they’re female is wrong, regardless of whether I make a statement about it.

Put the value judgements down, and approach the question logically and descriptively.

• There is (natal) sex which is assigned based on observations of genitals and chromosomes, at or before birth.

Not assigned, because it exists whether seen or not, but otherwise yes.

• there is a person’s understanding of their sex which develops over time (starting in early childhood around the age of 3).

Obviously.

• mostly these are aligned. Sometimes they are not.

What do you mean aligned? I would say mostly it’s not an issue. In a tiny fraction of children there is confusion and dissonance.

• We can ask “why”, but we don’t know. Arguably the more important question is what do we do about it?

We don’t know why. But we should try to know why. Because trans activists tell us it’s because of some innate “gender identity” which you haven’t defined but they do. We have to understand why to help us know what to do.

As for what to do about it, it’s pretty obvious. Long term data shows that if left alone, the vast majority of this particular cohort of children will reconcile with their sex in adulthood. So we should leave them alone. We should not “affirm” their misunderstanding, or go along with a “wrong body” concept that results in the harm of puberty blockers.

Thank you @Name5 for reminding us of the numerous casualties of this ideology. I do hope that your daughter is now happier?

This is false. The affirmative model says:

1. children’s declared gender identity should be accepted at face value [with only a circular weak definition of gender identity that ultimately can only be rationalised as born in the wrong body]

2. we help children alter their bodies to try and match the sex they think they are with hormones and surgeries.

And importantly

3. we can’t, don’t and won’t challenge a child in any way, we will only carry out 1) and 2).

You are sneakily trying to fit in the idea that a child needs to be “forced” to believe something different. That isn’t true. Watchful waiting, exploratory therapy and supportive care is about not making any physical alterations to a child while they consider the realities of who they are.

• We accept a child’s understanding of their sex is ok/valid and likely to be highly resistant to change.
• Rather than try to force a child to feel differently about their sex (which we know can be extremely harmful) we support that child with access to care that can enable them to live comfortably within their own understanding of their sex, whether that is making changes to dress, pronouns or hormonal interventions etc.

So by six years old, if a child says they should have been the opposite sex than what they are, they need to be treated to fix the body and mould it into something resembling something the child is not, even though we all know the side effects of this pathway is horendous.

Six years old. Instead of talking to the child to wait to see if their feelings about their body will change. I find that child abuse.

The child will be left with a broken body and will never fit into society as they want to because they won't ever be fully accepted as the sex they want to be. When it comes to sports, spaces, healthcare, they will always be reminded their body is not what they want it to be. I feel so sorry for kids set on that pathway.

Oh and where does gender fluid or non binary into this sex identity?

I think this is accurate. There’s a small, and I mean tiny, population who have a form of dysmorphia about the sex of their bodies. As with all body dysmorphias the treatment should be supportive care, not affirming the dysmorphia.

But this population is not all of the population that is described as trans. There’s a whole mixture of different types of presentations depending on the age.

The still not defined “gender identity” is a way of obscuring this mixture of presentations.

@Tandora we still haven't got to the bottom of why the belief that we all have a gender identity should be accepted as a truth. Here's an experiment:

I'm an atheist but let's imagine I'm a Christian and that I firmly believe that God created the Earth and all living beings, and that Jesus is his son who died and rose again to save us from our sins. Anyone who doesn't believe this is ignorant. God will forgive them if they realise that they were wrong not to believe in him but if they still maintain their refusal to believe, I'm not sure what else I can say.

Some people who don't believe in this ask me for evidence to prove that it's all true. I can produce records that show Jesus was a real person and that he did preach to people. There is lots of peer-reviewed evidence too, which has people witnessing that he turned water in to wine amongst other things. I don't have exact evidence that shows all of Mary's interactions before she was pregnant with Jesus but I have plenty of peer reviewed documents that prove that there is no explanation other than immaculate conception for Jesus being born. Also there are documents relating to him rising again after dying on the cross.

I want to teach the following in schools:

1. Chemical composition of water is complex. Under certain circumstances, it can be transformed in to other substances
2. Conception does not always need sperm and an egg. In certain circumstances no sperm is required.
3. Death is not final. Some people will rise up and live forever, some will go to a place that's somewhere in the sky(ish). We don't know much about the specifics as the science is evolving but we know that it's true because some people have seen or heard ghosts, which are the souls of people that are on this journey
4. Everyone needs to say thank you to God during assembly each morning and join in with the Lord's prayer. They should also make the sign of the cross using their hands across their bodies as they enter the main hall, facing the wooden cross that is hung on the wall.

If schools don't do this, children will feel unsafe. This is because their sense of who they are is connected to all of the above. Without God, they wouldn't be alive and they need assurances that the adults around them will support them by affirming this certainty. On point 4, if children don't do this "honest mistakes" should be accepted but there is a general duty on schools to ensure that this is followed, for the health and wellbeing of all children.

How does that sound?

The affirmation model is how I described above.

Aka Gender questioning.

Those terms are not covered by the equality act.,

In your opinion.

Again, facts exist regardless of people’s misconceptions.

What sort of "understanding" of their sex do these children have? Is it the "understanding" that they should (or shouldn't) have a penis? Or something else?

How a child might feel about their sex varies from child to child, but based on my research it is exceptionally rare (if ever a thing?) for young children to have dysphoria around their genitals.

You are free to reference any guidelines on gender affirmation models that you believe are contrary to what I have stated.

God knows how transactivists (most of who are not parents) would cope with the average child as they transition from dinosaur to lion to train to cat over the years.
Such an in depth ignorance of child development is quite something to see.

this has nothing to do with anything being discussed.

So where do you think 'Eunuchgender' comes from?

As suggested by WPATH.

Note that questions about belief and safeguarding children are never answered. 😄

I thought that Eunuchgender was one of the many suggestions from the random selection of fetishists who appear to have attached themselves to this ideology?

Could you reference what WPATH said please? A direct reference.

Genital surgery is not available in the UK until after 18 years. Some people advocate that this could be lowered to 16. I have not heard anyone argue that this should be a feature of health provision for young trans children.

Now you've really lost me.

A child understands that they are a boy or a girl based on their genitals. You have said that some children think they are the opposite sex even though they know they have the genitalia of a boy or a girl.

You now say that the children who think they are the opposite sex don't think that they should have the genitalia of the opposite sex. In that case, what do they think makes them think they have a "gender identity" of the opposite sex?

If it's not wanting the genitalia of the opposite sex, what makes them think they are or want to be the opposite sex?

Their understanding of their sex is not tied to / defined by the physical appearance of their genitals.

Great. We're getting somewhere.

What is their understanding of their sex defined by?

Re the affirmative approach, NHSE are very specific as to what it means. Their MindEd modules follow the developmental approach, not the affirmative approach.

Note the affirmative approach means actively supporting use of new name, pronouns, social transition etc

MindEd modules here (yes I know I keep referencing them- I wish more people would actually read them!)

https://www.minded.org.uk/Catalogue/Index?HierarchyId=0_59819&programmeId=59819