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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dating as a TERF

579 replies

TERFisTHEnewTREND · 14/12/2023 19:39

I'm a 34 year old female. I'm currently dating via Tinder.

When the gender issue has come up and I've mentioned that I'm a TERF, a lot of men have disengaged from me. I once went on three dates with a man, we got on great, and then when I mentioned my views on gender ideology, he ghosted me after!

Do you mention your stance up front or do you wait? I don't want to date anyone who thinks humans can change sex, is it worth stating this on my profile?

Any help/ advice/ insights appreciated.

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2023 00:57

You are far more likely to be attacked by another cis woman in the toilet than you are by a trans person.

Did you actually grasp the point I made? The only reason you are more likely to be attacked by a woman (no need for the silly in group jargon "cis" here) in the women's toilet for women is that men don't tend to use them. The more men do, the higher your risk of assault, because men commit most sexual assaults and your risk of being attacked by a woman is much smaller.

therealcookiemonster · 15/12/2023 01:02

most men out there are not very clued up on feminist ideology/various subgroups etc. the word terf (and radical feminist) is often bandied about as an abuse. so you using it may lead to misunderstandings.

I would say very few older men (apart from the TRAs) are either clued up on gender ideology (as it doesn't affect them in the same way) or are against self id. I would explain in more detail what you mean.

Nt1993 · 15/12/2023 01:03

@Ereshkigalangcleg Regardless of your views however, the statistic still stands. You have no comeback to the statistic so you just act like a child and refuse to listen to the facts.

People identify as trans people whether you like that or not, whether you or I are right in our views, that is a fact. Even if you personally believe trans women are men.

You are unable to listen to real statistics because of your close mindedness. That’s not how any form of debate or discussion works.

duc748 · 15/12/2023 01:06

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2023 00:57

You are far more likely to be attacked by another cis woman in the toilet than you are by a trans person.

Did you actually grasp the point I made? The only reason you are more likely to be attacked by a woman (no need for the silly in group jargon "cis" here) in the women's toilet for women is that men don't tend to use them. The more men do, the higher your risk of assault, because men commit most sexual assaults and your risk of being attacked by a woman is much smaller.

Well, exactly this. And most men aren't in women's toilets (obviously, a few awful exceptions aside), but somehow, nowadays, for a certain sector of men, to move in there seems to be OK.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2023 01:08

What statistic? Grin men commit 98% of sex crime. There is no material difference between a "trans woman" and any other male. If you have proof MTF trans people pose a lesser risk to women than any other male, please post it. Otherwise, no one has any reason to take your claim seriously.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2023 01:09

Well, exactly this. And most men aren't in women's toilets (obviously, a few awful exceptions aside), but somehow, nowadays, for a certain sector of men, to move in there seems to be OK.

Yes, the pp seems not to grasp that increasing the amount of males in female spaces increases the risk to women and girls.

Apollo441 · 15/12/2023 03:22

Nt1993 · 15/12/2023 00:42

@Apollo441 I really like that you assume I am a trans person when I am in fact AFAB pregnant lady who just happens to understand that sex and gender are different and that some people experience the horrendous life of being trapped in a body which does not correlate with their own gender identity. It must be a living hell for them.

How many times have you been sexually attacked by a trans person within one of these spaces? Or how many people do you know who have been harmed by a trans person in any of these spaces? You are statistically far more likely to be attacked by another AFAB woman than by a trans woman in these spaces.

I didn't assume you were trans I just stated the need for spaces segregated by SEX. Imagine the trauma of women who have been sexually assaulted encountering a male in a female only space. Or those that don't want to be leered at in a state of undress. 99% of sexual assaults are carried out by males irrespective of how the identify, so don't give me that 'women do it too' bollocks. That is enough reason to segregate by sex and transwomen are male. We have a growing body of evidence that transitioning doesn't affect their behaviour one bit.
And by the way, you weren't assigned anything at birth, you're sex was observed as female and sorry to disappointed you, you can never change sex. But don't get me wrong, present in any way you like, break down stereotypes, gender critical people encourage it. Piss in men's toilets if you feel safe enough. That applies to men too. Wear a dress and makeup. Be as gender non conforming as you like. But males as a sex class pose a risk to women so please don't invade single sex spaces. Simple.

SinnerBoy · 15/12/2023 03:32

Regardless of your views however, the statistic still stands. You have no comeback to the statistic so you just act like a child and refuse to listen to the facts.

Statistic? Saying something doesn't make it a statistic.

Have you got any links to studies, to support your claim that you are factually correct? Again, stating something, even if you believe it implicitly , doesn't necessarily mean tha it's a fact

Helleofabore · 15/12/2023 06:12

Nt1993 · 15/12/2023 00:42

@Apollo441 I really like that you assume I am a trans person when I am in fact AFAB pregnant lady who just happens to understand that sex and gender are different and that some people experience the horrendous life of being trapped in a body which does not correlate with their own gender identity. It must be a living hell for them.

How many times have you been sexually attacked by a trans person within one of these spaces? Or how many people do you know who have been harmed by a trans person in any of these spaces? You are statistically far more likely to be attacked by another AFAB woman than by a trans woman in these spaces.

How many times have you been sexually attacked by a trans person within one of these spaces? Or how many people do you know who have been harmed by a trans person in any of these spaces? You are statistically far more likely to be attacked by another AFAB woman than by a trans woman in these spaces.

Your logic is flawed.

Plus you rely on traumatised women and girls to be in a position to answer you for you to have to reconsider your luxury view. One where you have prioritised a male person’s demands over the needs of female people. So, your line of questioning is that until enough women or girls answer you personally that they have been ‘attacked’, you will scold and attempt to shame women who choose to protect all female people first. Good to know.

i believe that you need to consider risk and potential risk and harm over reported incidents. Your position attempts to minimise the risk based on falsity. I am not sure that you, personally, have thought this through. Maybe you are just repeating what you have seen others attempt to use to defend an indefensible demand for inclusion. Maybe you have thought through all the aspects and you wish to still prioritise male demands over female needs.

Firstly, the comparator is all male people. Not just a subset of male people as your points attempt to separate out. Please provide evidence to support this separation from the general male population if you want to position those male people as being less of a risk of committing sex offenses as others.

To be clear, please provide links to studies and verified statistics that a male at any point of transition, has a lower propensity of committing sex and /or violent crime than a male person.

If you cannot do this, you are arguing to support any male person over about 8, accessing vulnerable female people and you should accept that your argument increases the risk of those female people being harmed. However, it is not just about ‘being attacked’.

Secondly, it is about the loss of privacy and dignity of all female people in spaces they expect and need to be private. Including those who need those spaces to be reliably female only due to religious reasons. Where does your insistence leave those women? And can I point out that those women and children genuinely are some of the most marginalised and vulnerable in the UK. Your sentiments have now forced them to self exclude from wider participation in public life.

Same too for the many, many women and girls who have been “attacked” by a male perpetrator. Who don’t want come into a space where they get undressed knowing a male person is in that facility with them. That they may encounter that person with male cues coming into or out of the facility is distressing. Some have already reported to us that they are now also self excluding from wider public life.

Female people use toilets, for instance, for many other reasons than just ‘peeing’ and deserve to be able to use these toilets without the male gaze. Because these moments may be humiliating and you understand that maybe another female will at least understand inherently. And might even have been in that exact situation.

Such as drying off shirts while standing half undressed. Food or baby vomit or exploding breast leaks is just the start. I spent a couple of years with a pushchair so laden with bags and shopping they were jammed in the door of toilet cubicles. I was fully visible to people walking by while dealing with flooding periods and a cranky child. I have had to take my elderly mother to a normal cubicle due to the disabled toilet being out of order, have you ever had to do this? The choice is to leave the wheelchair jamming the door open or let her fall off the toilet. Or maybe she shouldn’t have a day out because she, a victim of domestic abuse, expects not to have to have her body exposed to a male person?

There is also a fast growing porn category of male people masturbating in toilet cubicles in female toilets. Complete with them fondling their artificially enhanced breasts. The evidence of which is not hard to find at all. It is out there. It used to be all over Twitter. The harm to women and children include them being used (even if they are unaware) to fuel fantasies of these male people. Indeed, prominent trans people have even mocked women for their toilet habits and noises women make on the toilet on Twitter in recent years. Who fucking does that?

So, it is not limited to the need to not be ‘attacked’.

Helleofabore · 15/12/2023 06:13

Nt1993 · 15/12/2023 00:42

@Apollo441 I really like that you assume I am a trans person when I am in fact AFAB pregnant lady who just happens to understand that sex and gender are different and that some people experience the horrendous life of being trapped in a body which does not correlate with their own gender identity. It must be a living hell for them.

How many times have you been sexually attacked by a trans person within one of these spaces? Or how many people do you know who have been harmed by a trans person in any of these spaces? You are statistically far more likely to be attacked by another AFAB woman than by a trans woman in these spaces.

However, you wanted to limit the discussion to attacks. You asked questions that you thought were great ‘gotcha’ questions. Here is one from me. You are on a feminist chat board so obviously, you must have thought about it.

How many women and girls harmed are acceptable collateral in your view in the prioritising male people’s demands over female people’s needs and allowing male people into all female single sex spaces?

Because, if your answer is 1 girl or woman, we are past that. I believe Dolatowalski attacked 2 girls directly before being imprisoned. So, that has long gone.

5 women and girls? That number has past too.

100? we had a poster who told us that unless there was an established trend of over 100 attacks convicted on women and girls in the UK per year, we should just fucking shut up.

Do you agree with that poster?

My number is zero by the way. Hence, I now actively join campaigns designed to protect female people’s single sex spaces. All of the spaces, all of the female people.

Please tell us how many women and girls is your number of acceptable collateral in your demand that women and girls prioritise male people’s demands over female people’s needs? Or is it n+1?

Or, do you have to be looking them in the eyes when they tell you they were raped by a person from a particular group for you to reconsider your position and to choose to protect female people first?

Helleofabore · 15/12/2023 06:16

DC1888 · 14/12/2023 22:54

There are just 23 of them;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67613441

You could fit them all inside a classroom and have room to spare.

Said previously, some people are born with the wrong body parts. Hermaphrodites are born with both. I've seen very effeminate males with more curvy bodies than females...while I haven't personally come across the opposite there is the case of Caster Semenya, more manly than many males.

Its never just a simple case of XX and XY, there is an outlier of people who are physically more in tune with the sex they were not born into. I grew up with one...he was as girly a girl could have been.

The ignorance in this post is alarming.

On so many levels too.

EtiennePalmiere · 15/12/2023 06:19

In response to the actual OP, I wouldn't put anything in a profile. Instead I would keep an eye on any views he expresses on woman's rights and if they're a red flag. If he knows your views already he could hide his own and just tell you what you want to hear.

Btw I'm wary of men who call themselves feminists, I find they're often just saying it to show they're a "nice guy" and sometimes raging misogynists.

Wearingmybluejumper · 15/12/2023 06:21

Helleofabore · 15/12/2023 06:13

However, you wanted to limit the discussion to attacks. You asked questions that you thought were great ‘gotcha’ questions. Here is one from me. You are on a feminist chat board so obviously, you must have thought about it.

How many women and girls harmed are acceptable collateral in your view in the prioritising male people’s demands over female people’s needs and allowing male people into all female single sex spaces?

Because, if your answer is 1 girl or woman, we are past that. I believe Dolatowalski attacked 2 girls directly before being imprisoned. So, that has long gone.

5 women and girls? That number has past too.

100? we had a poster who told us that unless there was an established trend of over 100 attacks convicted on women and girls in the UK per year, we should just fucking shut up.

Do you agree with that poster?

My number is zero by the way. Hence, I now actively join campaigns designed to protect female people’s single sex spaces. All of the spaces, all of the female people.

Please tell us how many women and girls is your number of acceptable collateral in your demand that women and girls prioritise male people’s demands over female people’s needs? Or is it n+1?

Or, do you have to be looking them in the eyes when they tell you they were raped by a person from a particular group for you to reconsider your position and to choose to protect female people first?

^^ This! Thanks Helle!

AlecTrevelyan006 · 15/12/2023 06:25

I think most men are gender critical but wouldn’t necessarily label themselves as such. And they certainly don’t call themselves a TERF even if they know what it means.

BeyondHumanKenneth · 15/12/2023 06:27

Honestly OP I would not go full on with labels like TERF at first. I met my DH on a dating site and all I had in my profile was silly stuff but I could see on the first date he was a reflective and intelligent kind of guy. I think that is more indicative of long-term compatibility over a lot of issues than labels we would have used about ourselves on that first date.

If I were dating today I would use the first couple of dates to filter out self-righteous virtue-signalling types. As this thread demonstrates, people don't actually understand what TERF is - we've had people who automatically think TERF=bigot then going on to express some pretty terfy sentiments about women's sport.

If you want to only date TERFs, you could introduce a discussion of women's sports and say how you think it is unfair. That would give you a good idea of their stance, no matter how they label themselves. If they are willing to entertain even a smidgeon of doubt over the fairness of males in female categories, they are by definition a TERF.

Of course if after that they still go on thinking that TERF=bigot, then that might say something about their intellectual capacity so that would get alarm bells ringing about dating somebody who is so unreflective that they can't see the hypocrisy in their stance.

TerfTalking · 15/12/2023 06:37

Look I’m a Terf, happy to be gender critical and proud to admit it when asked, but I wouldn’t put it on a dating app or go full on, on an early date. Given that a few people upthread don’t know what one is, it’s likely your date didn’t and got weirded out.

I start slowly when talking about my thoughts on the subject, and most people agree that yes men shouldn’t be in women’s sports, humans cannot change sex, it’s not safe or fair for men to be in women’s safe spaces.

I genuinely believe there are more people in the western world that still have to wake up to this madness than those already conscious, they simply think we should be kind to the odd different person who isn’t harming anyone. Which would be great if that’s all it was.

only with my best friends, DH and DS can I well and truly get on my soap box and rant about the ideological madness. DD is a work in progress, although now it’s impacting her role as an AHP in the NHS I sense a shift.

DarkDuvet · 15/12/2023 06:37

No one I know in real life, nor met on dating sites believes the woo.

Avoid anyone with pronouns, and you should be fine

doodlepants · 15/12/2023 06:38

My suggestion is remove the TERF part of your description then let it come up later. You don't have to put everything up front 🤷‍♀️

doodlepants · 15/12/2023 06:40

Also when I was on tinder I often had guys ghost me simply for saying in conversation I was a feminist. "You're not one of those feminists are you?" "You're a man hater?" "Feminism is ugly, it makes you ugly". I'm afraid guys on tinder don't necessary know what it means and get scared of it.

Ilovelurchers · 15/12/2023 06:56

Regarding whether to mention you are GC in your Tinder profile - I would say it depends how big a part of your life it is. Let me explain - is it something you talk about, read about, consider yourself an activist for etc. Or is it just a quietly held firm belief you bring up where relevant?

If someone mentions something on their profile I assume it is a big part of their identity and something they spend a lot of time thinking and talking about. I mentioned my Socialist beliefs on mine because I talk about them loads, I campaign, admin a big socialist FB group etc - its a massive part of who I am and anybody considering getting into something with me needs to be comfortable with that.

I have other views on other issues I didn't mention, not because they are unimportant to me but because they define me less I suppose.

If someone mentioned their gender views on their profile I would assume they spent a lot of time thinking, reading, discussing, complaining etc for those views. And perhaps that is you?

There are definitely lots of GC men out there, so you will find some I am sure. Are you sure the ones you mention ghosted you for this reason?

EmpressaurusOfCats · 15/12/2023 06:58

doodlepants · 15/12/2023 06:40

Also when I was on tinder I often had guys ghost me simply for saying in conversation I was a feminist. "You're not one of those feminists are you?" "You're a man hater?" "Feminism is ugly, it makes you ugly". I'm afraid guys on tinder don't necessary know what it means and get scared of it.

Isn’t that more a reason to include it than not?

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 15/12/2023 07:09

Alternatively i prefer

Tired of
Explaining
Reality to
Fuckwits

Grincatchy, don't you think?

(I can't take credit as it was posted on MN some time ago)

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 15/12/2023 07:10

Feliciacat · 14/12/2023 20:12

My apologies for freely using the term TERF in my earlier posts given that it is considered offensive. The OP sounded like this was what they called themselves so I followed that lead. Gender critical is a better term though and may mean that people who google it will get a less vitriolic portrayal of your beliefs than if they looked up TERF.

But yes agree with this and previous posters similar sentiments

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 15/12/2023 07:11

DC1888 · 14/12/2023 20:26

Terf is a bigot though, that would put anyone off.

Was astounded reading Wikipedia yesterday to see that the UK is dubbed "terf island".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF_(acronym)

The reason I found it astounding is the UK is the birthplace of androgyny becoming mainstream via glam rock/new romantics...the UK was far ahead of anywhere else in uprooting gender norms. When anyone thinks of the UK they think progressive/good sense... the right wing fringe (Farage) excepted.

Terf is regressive/backward and very un-UK like...its something you'd expect from the US bible belt (no doubt they are too).

A source on that wiki article posits why terf is so strong in the UK: "The U.K. has a long history of powerful feminist movements and feminist activism that has been successful in securing large-scale legal reforms around the notion of 'women's rights,' so TERF groups build on the legacy of this past feminist work when they articulate their politics of 'women's sex-based rights.'"

So Wollstonecraft (founder of feminism), Pankhurst etc. They fought for good causes though. Being a bigot is not a good cause.

You can be against natural born males bejng in natural born women sports (theres a fair argument for that), but to mals the sweeping statement that transwomen are not woman is bloody bigoted/backward/ignorant.

But a transwoman categorically is not a woman.

Not bigotry but reality.

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