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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dating as a TERF

579 replies

TERFisTHEnewTREND · 14/12/2023 19:39

I'm a 34 year old female. I'm currently dating via Tinder.

When the gender issue has come up and I've mentioned that I'm a TERF, a lot of men have disengaged from me. I once went on three dates with a man, we got on great, and then when I mentioned my views on gender ideology, he ghosted me after!

Do you mention your stance up front or do you wait? I don't want to date anyone who thinks humans can change sex, is it worth stating this on my profile?

Any help/ advice/ insights appreciated.

OP posts:
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Hii93 · 17/12/2023 20:00

I am engaging in good faith but I guess you think that the LGBT community can't call out people who claim to be for them but participate on threads like this.

Trans people are being used as the gateway to the rest of the LGBT community. They attack trans people so that they can go after the LGBT community.

If you can't see that and you are happy to keep on doing this you don't support the LGBT community.

But let's put good faith to the test and give me examples of provable things you have done for the LGBT community

DissidentDaughter · 17/12/2023 20:00

@Waitwhat23 Indeed.

I’m all for freedom of belief/expression, but not when critical thinking is abandoned and cult dogma undermines hard-won rights, distorts the principles of safeguarding etc.

The tide is, albeit slowly, turning.

MargotBamborough · 17/12/2023 20:12

Hii93 · 17/12/2023 20:00

I am engaging in good faith but I guess you think that the LGBT community can't call out people who claim to be for them but participate on threads like this.

Trans people are being used as the gateway to the rest of the LGBT community. They attack trans people so that they can go after the LGBT community.

If you can't see that and you are happy to keep on doing this you don't support the LGBT community.

But let's put good faith to the test and give me examples of provable things you have done for the LGBT community

Some of the people you are talking about ARE lesbian or bi.

The reality is that there is no such thing as the "LGBT community".

It's not a community.

There are people who are same sex attracted and people who have gender identities and sometimes their interests are diametrically opposed.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 17/12/2023 20:13

You first @Hii93 What provable things have you done to support women of the actual biological kind to preserve their rights and single sex spaces?

DC1888 · 17/12/2023 20:16

I know I said I was done posting on this thread but just want to clear up my own point on this. When I said bigot i'm referring to those who use phrases like "bloke in a dress" or show zero compassion for the trans community (Posie Parker). I think most people are moderates, but this extreme terf movement is a backlash against the crazy far left proposals that created this issue.

Bigoted comments on the first page of this thread before I posted anything;

"I am gender critical. Proud to support the LGB community but not those who invade female spaces."

So just LGB support...T don't count.

"Most straight men aren't going to date a male regardless of how they dress....Other men are completely disinterested in the whole thing and just see TW as a weird "fella in a dress".

So a man is gay for being interested in a transwoman (or a weird "fella in a dress")? According to a poll done 3% of straight men say they would, and that's likely to grow given how relatively new this is in mainstream society.

"I bet the men who are dating you are all “TERFs” as well - I bet they don’t date male women!"

From being a weird "fella in a dress" to, "male women".

No-one can seriously think these comments are acceptable or tolerant. They are marginalising or insulting a group of people.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 17/12/2023 20:19

But let's put good faith to the test and give me examples of provable things you have done for the LGBT community

I’m a lesbian & I volunteered for Stonewall back in the days of Section 28. Now I help out at LGB Alliance events and I was part of a delegation to the House of Lords last winter to talk about the current problems lesbians face in the UK.

And I’m deeply grateful I came out in the 90s because then there was an actual lesbian community - not an ‘LGBT’ one - to come out into, and nobody was telling young masculine or butch lesbians that they were probably boys because of how they chose to present.

Do you realise that Tavistock clinicians expressed concern about how many of the children & young people seen there were actually lesbian or gay, but got put on puberty blockers which in almost every case lead on to cross sex hormones & very likely genital surgery and / or mastectomies for the girls, without having the chance to find out? Do you have any idea what those drugs do to young people’s bodies?

Have you seen the videos of Susie Green, who used to run Mermaids, first talking about how her child used to be punished for not being masculine enough & then, after that child’s genital surgery on their 16th birthday, laughing about how little the surgeon had had to work with because of the puberty blockers?

Do you know that Nancy Kelley equated homosexuality with racism & that Ruth Hunt dismissed concerns about the safety of unisex toilets because ‘women are always going to get raped’? Hitching the T on to LGB was the worst thing Stonewall ever did to the LGB community.

I hope, one day, they all wake up to what they’ve done.

Creampies · 17/12/2023 20:28

It’s not about men though, it’s about women’s rights to single sex spaces away from any male however they choose to identify.
it’s about to the right to state material reality, not some quasi religious transubstantiation of the flesh.
its about safeguarding , dignity, privacy and safety and single sex provision for women and safeguarding for children and vulnerable adults.

nothingcomestonothing · 17/12/2023 20:33

Hii93 · 17/12/2023 20:00

I am engaging in good faith but I guess you think that the LGBT community can't call out people who claim to be for them but participate on threads like this.

Trans people are being used as the gateway to the rest of the LGBT community. They attack trans people so that they can go after the LGBT community.

If you can't see that and you are happy to keep on doing this you don't support the LGBT community.

But let's put good faith to the test and give me examples of provable things you have done for the LGBT community

No, LGB people are being used as a shield for T people. And much like women, they weren't asked and they didn't consent.

MargotBamborough · 17/12/2023 20:37

DC1888 · 17/12/2023 20:16

I know I said I was done posting on this thread but just want to clear up my own point on this. When I said bigot i'm referring to those who use phrases like "bloke in a dress" or show zero compassion for the trans community (Posie Parker). I think most people are moderates, but this extreme terf movement is a backlash against the crazy far left proposals that created this issue.

Bigoted comments on the first page of this thread before I posted anything;

"I am gender critical. Proud to support the LGB community but not those who invade female spaces."

So just LGB support...T don't count.

"Most straight men aren't going to date a male regardless of how they dress....Other men are completely disinterested in the whole thing and just see TW as a weird "fella in a dress".

So a man is gay for being interested in a transwoman (or a weird "fella in a dress")? According to a poll done 3% of straight men say they would, and that's likely to grow given how relatively new this is in mainstream society.

"I bet the men who are dating you are all “TERFs” as well - I bet they don’t date male women!"

From being a weird "fella in a dress" to, "male women".

No-one can seriously think these comments are acceptable or tolerant. They are marginalising or insulting a group of people.

Do you get this worked up about people like this?

www.terfisaslur.com

Or about those who describe women as, for example, "expectant assholes"?

What about the people who don't just say offensive things about women, they actually physically assault women who don't agree with them, such as those lovely trans activists who showed up to Posie Parker's event in Auckland?

Or is your ire reserved for people who refer to male people who wear stereotypically feminine clothing as "blokes in dresses"?

TERF is a slur

Documenting the abuse, harassment and misogyny of transgender identity politics

http://www.terfisaslur.com

Theeyeballsinthesky · 17/12/2023 20:39

Now come on @MargotBamborough you know all of this pales into insignificance compared to a woman not putting men’s feelings first!

ApocalipstickNow · 17/12/2023 20:39

“"I am gender critical. Proud to support the LGB community but not those who invade female spaces."

So just LGB support...T don't count.”

The quote above yours explicitly states not those who invade female spaces. Now maybe they’re including transmen/nb women but I’d guess not. And transwomen who compete in male sport/don’t use women’s changing rooms etc are not being referred to.
————————————————————-
"Most straight men aren't going to date a male regardless of how they dress....Other men are completely disinterested in the whole thing and just see TW as a weird "fella in a dress".

So a man is gay for being interested in a transwoman (or a weird "fella in a dress")? According to a poll done 3% of straight men say they would, and that's likely to grow given how relatively new this is in mainstream society

”Most straight men …”

”3% of straight men said they would.”

These statements are in agreement.

ApocalipstickNow · 17/12/2023 20:40

Sorry that’s so awfully formatted I can’t pull specific quotes.

ArthurbellaScott · 17/12/2023 20:40

DC1888 · 17/12/2023 20:16

I know I said I was done posting on this thread but just want to clear up my own point on this. When I said bigot i'm referring to those who use phrases like "bloke in a dress" or show zero compassion for the trans community (Posie Parker). I think most people are moderates, but this extreme terf movement is a backlash against the crazy far left proposals that created this issue.

Bigoted comments on the first page of this thread before I posted anything;

"I am gender critical. Proud to support the LGB community but not those who invade female spaces."

So just LGB support...T don't count.

"Most straight men aren't going to date a male regardless of how they dress....Other men are completely disinterested in the whole thing and just see TW as a weird "fella in a dress".

So a man is gay for being interested in a transwoman (or a weird "fella in a dress")? According to a poll done 3% of straight men say they would, and that's likely to grow given how relatively new this is in mainstream society.

"I bet the men who are dating you are all “TERFs” as well - I bet they don’t date male women!"

From being a weird "fella in a dress" to, "male women".

No-one can seriously think these comments are acceptable or tolerant. They are marginalising or insulting a group of people.

'Do it to Julia'

Catiette · 17/12/2023 21:43

@DC1888, thank you, quite genuinely, for posting specifics & explanations. This is a rare thing indeed on these boards, & really really helps me to check & clarify my own thinking with more meaningful reference to your perspective than the usual generalisations permit.

I've thought about each of the below, & can see how you could come to your interpretations (which I've recorded as 1), but also that there are alternative interpretations (which I've recorded as 2). In the light of the scope for different interpretations, I do find your condemnation of the quotes as "unacceptable", with the emphatic "seriously" suggesting that this is utterly self-evident, a little worrying. We really need to be able to debate these complex issues, & to distinguish between differing opinions rapidly typed in a fast-moving chat, & actual bigotry. Without this, we risk losing the ability to voice concerns, & to recognise & name what is truly "unacceptable" in political & social discourse - & that could lead down a very dark road indeed.

"I am gender critical. Proud to support the LGB community but not those who invade female spaces."

ONE) So just LGB support... T don't count.

TWO) I don't see this as an outright dismissal of T people on principle, but of the principles the T has, regrettably, become so aligned & synonymous with as to be almost inextricable from them - &, specifically, of those who aggressively enforce those principles. I agree that the language is emotive, & recognise that there's no qualifying acknowledgment of everything else the T represents or exploration of ways in which they could be supported, but to condemn this as "unacceptable" feels like saying that a woman can't refuse support of a movement that is impinging on her rights (at least without her including a qualifying explanation that separates that movement from other individuals within it who don't subscribe to that view). Such silencing would, surely, itself be unacceptable in a democracy?

"Most straight men aren't going to date a male regardless of how they dress....Other men are completely disinterested in the whole thing and just see TW as a weird "fella in a dress".

ONE) So a man is gay for being interested in a transwoman (or a weird "fella in a dress")? According to a poll done 3% of straight men say they would, and that's likely to grow given how relatively new this is in mainstream society.

TWO) Yes, I'd personally argue that that's the definition of "gay" - attracted to the male body - & I actually think that there's a valid argument that implying that this is offensive, & that attraction to gender supercedes sexual attraction, is, itself, homophobic (note, though, I'm not just dismissing the phrasing as "unacceptable" - many more words & time would be needed to get to the bottom of that one!) "Fella in a dress" is more difficult - I find it distasteful on balance, because it does have a strong whiff of ridicule in many contexts (& post about it in more detail on the archdeacon thread) - but I honestly did read this example simply as representing someone else's - men's - perspective & language. And unambiguously "unacceptable to say" in this context? Again, no.

"I bet the men who are dating you are all “TERFs” as well - I bet they don’t date male women!"

ONE) From being a weird "fella in a dress" to, "male women".

TWO) "Male women" is used here because language is becoming so mangled that it's increasingly hard to express ideas like this one: that most men are attracted to women, & that "women" now includes male-bodied people. I'd say another equally valid perspective (again, I'm not saying right or wrong, but using this to say that all the judgements we make of this nature exist within a complex societal, cultural framework with its own, arguably arbitrary, standards) is that it's "insulting" to women that our word has been appropriated in such a way that we're forced into contortions like this - & insulting again that, forced into using such contortions to defend our rights, we're condemned for this.

In summary, I'm not saying I'd use the quotes above, or even that I agree with all of the language used. But this is different to "unacceptable". To call something "unacceptable" will always be a value judgement, and one with huge implications. One of our concerns here is that the current movement has relied on the idea of "unacceptable" language to stymy debate, & I think this has led to a backlash in women using stronger language than they otherwise would have done, out of fear, anger - &, in some cases, sheer necessity. Context is also everything. Parts of the above would be anathema to me in some contexts, & maybe to the posters quoted, too - but in this context, in an internet forum, & to the degree you suggest? No.

To not take all this into account, & instead to support silencing these voices could, itself, be seen as "unacceptable".

Catiette · 17/12/2023 21:53

Counter-arguments very welcome...

Froodwithatowel · 17/12/2023 22:09

You're here to call women names for not lying nicely as you do, conditionally, to prove you're nice to nice men. Who you don't require do anything in return or show any equal care of any kind which makes it female labour and service owed on the grounds of maleness. You rather rudely call me a bigot for not dressing that up in pretty words in the way that you want me to. I see your major issue with boundaries, internalised sexism and enough experience yet, but I won't be calling you names about it, because how would that help?

I'm not going to bother with all the LGBT ranting, just to share here for the rational readers:

when posters rant about the 'LGBT community' they do not mean ALL lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people, of diverse politics, beliefs, cultures, yada yada, united by the fact of their experience of homosexuality. As it always did until the GI political lobby captured and owned it.

What they in fact mean is the re packaged corporate and political name 'LGBT community' which stands for 'those of any sexuality, straight included, who are united in belief of gender ideology'. It is a confidence trick. That political group have in fact got rid of homosexuals as sexual racists, won't let them come to pride or have groups of their own, and exclude any LGBT person who is not compliant to the gender ideology political position. They have re defined 'homophobia' to mean something convenient to GI, and as a lesbian I've been called homophobic for saying homosexuality means exclusively same sex attracted. Corrective rape also something frequently mentioned, look up the well known sportsman who said on radio about the need for homosexual women to learn to cope with straight sex with men rather than upset said men by rejecting their gender identity. I mean let that sink in. The absolute psychopathy of it. How dysfunctional a person do you have to be to think the most a woman should look for in a sexual experience is 'learning to cope' so that the man can gain pleasure from using her? You're not talking about well people.

I'm L, I've helped run a group for LGBT people for decades now with many Q members and some T members, and we all get on fine. But I'm the wrong kind of homosexual so it won't count. The only 'serving of the community' that counts is the kind that stamps women into the ground and serves male interests. And I won't be party to that.

Creampies · 17/12/2023 22:23

There is no middle ground or complexity.

It is impossible to change sex.
Whatever you do to your body you can’t change sex.
sex based rights should be protected.

Apollo441 · 17/12/2023 22:29

Is it the school holidays again?

Waitingfordoggo · 17/12/2023 22:30

Great post @Catiette. Branding certain views or language as a blanket ‘unacceptable’ is a get-out. There’s no attempt to engage with any of the ideas or arguments. It’s easy to just dismiss things as ‘unacceptable’ so that you don’t have to really think about it in any depth.

Helleofabore · 17/12/2023 22:40

Hii93 · 17/12/2023 20:00

I am engaging in good faith but I guess you think that the LGBT community can't call out people who claim to be for them but participate on threads like this.

Trans people are being used as the gateway to the rest of the LGBT community. They attack trans people so that they can go after the LGBT community.

If you can't see that and you are happy to keep on doing this you don't support the LGBT community.

But let's put good faith to the test and give me examples of provable things you have done for the LGBT community

Really, what is it you are expecting people to post here? Where else on the internet do you turn up and demand to know what people have done especially for a sub group in society?

You seem to be well entrenched in your own prejudices about people who post on this board. Rather hypocritical isn’t it? There are people who describe themselves as LGB posting on this thread. Or, are they the wrong sort of LGB people and you dismiss their opinion?

You seem rather intolerant of people having opinions different to yours? Are you about to tell us that you are wonderfully loving and tolerant? Oh please, we haven’t seen that in oh… about an hour or so.

ArthurbellaScott · 17/12/2023 22:45

I would be cautious of anyone asking for people to offer 'provable' examples.

Helleofabore · 17/12/2023 22:46

DC1888 · 17/12/2023 20:16

I know I said I was done posting on this thread but just want to clear up my own point on this. When I said bigot i'm referring to those who use phrases like "bloke in a dress" or show zero compassion for the trans community (Posie Parker). I think most people are moderates, but this extreme terf movement is a backlash against the crazy far left proposals that created this issue.

Bigoted comments on the first page of this thread before I posted anything;

"I am gender critical. Proud to support the LGB community but not those who invade female spaces."

So just LGB support...T don't count.

"Most straight men aren't going to date a male regardless of how they dress....Other men are completely disinterested in the whole thing and just see TW as a weird "fella in a dress".

So a man is gay for being interested in a transwoman (or a weird "fella in a dress")? According to a poll done 3% of straight men say they would, and that's likely to grow given how relatively new this is in mainstream society.

"I bet the men who are dating you are all “TERFs” as well - I bet they don’t date male women!"

From being a weird "fella in a dress" to, "male women".

No-one can seriously think these comments are acceptable or tolerant. They are marginalising or insulting a group of people.

You really really have nothing to fall back on lecturing others. You called peoplR with differences of sex development ‘hermaphodites’ and have liberally called people extremists, bigots and nutters. And treat people with religious beliefs with denigration.

I suspect you still cannot actually describe in any detail what your ‘moderate’ solution entailing ‘rigorous testing’ involves and just how that, complete with evidence from stats and studies, protects women and children.

You still seem to think you can declare others bigots though.

InvisibleBuffy · 18/12/2023 06:19

I find it interesting that most of the examples given come down to objecting to men in dresses.
I think DC1888 needs to explain exactly what is wrong with a man wearing a dress.
Like many of us on here, I first thought the trans movement was part of an ongoing and positive move towards gender non-conformity.
I was wrong. It's the opposite. Now, it insists that a man in a dress has to actually be a woman and reacts with fury that he might not be.
And it has resulted in this massive backwards movement in which anyone gender non-conforming is now expected to actually be that gender.
Tomboys can no longer be girls
Feminine boys who like dolls are now assumed to actually be girls.
It is deeply regressive.
And a man in a dress has to be an actual woman.
Women aren't dresses.
This is nothing but the enforcement of gender stereotyping on steroids.

Waitwhat23 · 18/12/2023 06:34

Yep. It's incredibly regressive and reinforces stereotypes rather than challenging them.

Dating as a TERF
TheMarzipanDildo · 18/12/2023 08:18

Hii93 · 17/12/2023 20:00

I am engaging in good faith but I guess you think that the LGBT community can't call out people who claim to be for them but participate on threads like this.

Trans people are being used as the gateway to the rest of the LGBT community. They attack trans people so that they can go after the LGBT community.

If you can't see that and you are happy to keep on doing this you don't support the LGBT community.

But let's put good faith to the test and give me examples of provable things you have done for the LGBT community

I’m a bisexual, I have no idea what you’re going on about.

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