GC Feminism and Gaza/Israel

[auberginefortea]

I haven't seen a thread on this yet, and I'm genuinely interested to understand the intersection between different political stances. Where do most posters in this forum stand on Israel/Palestine?

From what I've seen, Julie Bindel has taken quite a strong stance in supporting Israel on Twitter/X. The TRAs I've seen seem to be a lot more pro Gaza/Palestine and anti-Israel.

Is there an intersection between views on gender and Israel/Palestine?

Personally, I'm GC (though not especially strident, more bemused and baffled) and my sympathies naturally lie with Israel (I'm a zionist in that I believe in Jewish State), but I also worry that Israel is going too far.

FFS i don't want it to be an echo chamber. But there is a difference between "this place has AS statements" by implication they stand
And "this place had AS statements but they were deleted"

And i don't know why I'm "having a go at" anyone when i say this. And then go on to say that I don't think they should be allowed to stand.

Well the Palestinians elected Hamas. If it turns into a dictatorship, what is Israel supposed to do about it?

More recently than Netenyahu was elected? I understood that the last election was in 2006? That isn't a ringing endorsement of Hamas.

I don't know what the answer is which is why i am watching what happens and supporting neither side here. I am on the side only of the women and children who are "collateral damage" in all this. I am more than shocked, disappointed and angry that AS posts get made here, and also racist posts.

Well I seriously doubt that the international community is going to get involved in removing Hamas; and even if they did, I don't think they have a better record than Israel when it comes to limiting civilian casualties.

It's easy to say you don't like Israel's behaviour. It's quite a bit harder to remove a terror group, and keep civilian casualties very low at the same time, when the terror group is happy to use civilians for cover.

John McDonnell is fond of waving around his copy of Das Capital, though - and on numerous occasions Jeremy Corbyn has associated himself with Stalinists; as well as with the pan arab league - most of whom sought the eradication of Israel.

Hamas 'operatives' apparently had arabic translations of Marxist texts on them as they set about their rampage through the kibbutz, as well as copies of Mein Kampf. All of their pronouncements on Israel are straight out of the Marxist script.

I agree, thank you @AdamRyan .

John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn thankfully have no place in British politics at the moment. In no small part due to Starmer's no tolerance approach to anti semitism

The intersection I see is with Double think. War is Peace, transwomen are women.

I was devastated by the Hamas attack, despite context and my pro-Palestine stance. However, now after two months of Hell imposed on 2,3 million trapped people (mostly under 18yo) I cannot believe Israel’s citizens can consider their government’s actions other than inhumane and barbaric.

You don’t react to a wrong with a 10,000 times worst wrong, or is that just Christian culture? it happened to me, so I’m entitled to inflict double the pain onto you, said the bullies.

I'm a GC feminist aka 'terf', and my leaning has always been towards the Palestinians, long before I heard of genderism. The reason is that they're clearly the oppressed and maltreated party here. Yes October 7th was horrific. It didn't however come out of a void.

As a feminist, how do you feel about Palestine's appalling human rights violations concerning the subjugation of women?

Obviously I would want equal rights.

However the bigger picture is one power stamping its boot on the neck of another group of people.

That has to be resolved.

Its difficult to say as information is suppressed. I made a thread on this but it didn't gain much attention,

'Not only was this poor child raped but the Israeli government shut down the human rights group that spoke up, stole their computers and labelled it a terrorist organisation the day after the accusations were brought to them by US State Department Official who investigated and labelled the allegations credible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch&ab_channel=CNN**

He speaks on it at 8:55 and Christine Amanpour ignored what he said and changed the subject. Absolutely disgraceful.

Further reports from save the children - pre Oct 7th detailing how Palestinian children are strip searched and touched in a sexual nature whilst detained in Israel. It also details the beatings and other abuse children receive.
The children in this report were between the ages of 12 and 17 when this abuse occurred.

www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian'

I suppose what it comes down to is this.

You don't inflict your own moral views by force, no matter how righteous and logical they seem to you. Let populations find their own way, or be persuaded. Anything else is imperialism.

Also: is that really what is going on here? Or is Israel's endgame to extend their territory and clear it of Arabs? Because I know what it looks like.

What?

Israel is fighting back against Hamas, where Hamas has the imperialist agenda.

And why would they want Gaza, when they completely pulled out of it in 2005?

If I also can answer this:

I feel the same way I feel about misogyny in general.
It’s horrible, that’s why I do my best as an activist.
And that is also why it’s important to get ceasefire and stop israelis bombing, violence and oppression and get Palestinians their freedom and own country. This is the only way to also get better rights for women also. You do realize that, right?
That israelis occupation and violence also hurt women?
Most of the killed now have been women and children?
Not exactly very feminist to do or support, right?

I realize you meant this as an gotcha, but if all countries were allowed to be bombed away, because violence againts women/ misogyny, would there be any countries left?
I live in a country with very high number of partnered violence, are we all guilty now and should get slaughtered?
US took women’s rights to their own body away, so should they now all get bombed?
How is that helping women?

And do you really believe all Palestinian (men?) are guilty of you accusation?

And how does this justify anything israel is doing or have been doing for the past 75+ years?
And how is their actiond not ’appalling human rights violations concerning the subjugation of women’ (and also men and children)?

But lots of Corbynistas and Momentum activists still do. Corbyn brought a lot of young people with him; and in my city for example, they dominate. Most of our local Labour councillors ( which is 95% of them), and certainly the very young ones ( councillors at age 19 & 20) do not attend the Labour party conference at all - they attend the side show that is 'The World Transformed' with the likes of Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar.

My own Labour MP was a Corbynista plant - after my MP Louise Ellman ( Jewish) had been bullied out for being a 'a Friend of Israel'. She's unbearable - and not only refers to Israel as a " fascist state" but she has the Mermaids logo at the top of her twitter account.

This is a deeply simplistic analysis that shows little awareness or knowledege of the wider history of the region ( or of the Jewish people in that region), and seems to consist merely of the repetition of Marxist memes and tropes.

Starmer is just the facade created for election purposes. Take a look at who sits on the benches behind him.

@RebelliousCow if you don't mind can you elaborate on that please? For someone who is finding the 'left' and their response wholly inadequate.

There is the polished gloss of Starmer and his tightly message controlled front bench - and then there are the rest of the Labour MPs sitting on the back benches; most of whom are far more radical, left wing/'progresive' and rebellious than he.

TBH. I think most of 'anti-Zionists' can't even show Israel/Gaza on the map.
Hamas can openly say that they are planning genocide, and while Jews are the first target, they have more goals in the region, but liberal leftists will never listen to that.

Previous thread asked about feminism and antisemitism, I have just read that:
https://quillette.com/2023/12/15/a-history-of-feminist-antisemitism/ and can recommend.

Edit: Angela Davis is, similarly to Corbyn, an uber hypocrite. She was fine with gulags (real open prisons, where people were dying for multiple choice of reasons) and was happy to backed - up regime that killed millions of indigenous people (just not her people) because they did not liked America.

@RebelliousCow so like he is the acceptable face of the party and those behind are the real movers and shakers? Behind the front bench.

Do you think the Corbyn overhang is still an issue for the party?

@stomachameleon I know you weren't addressing that question to me so I hope you don't mind me wading in.

My feeling is that no, the Corbynites no longer have much power in the Labour Party. Labour's stance on the current ME conflict has been pretty clear. A handful of back benchers complained and a tiny number of Labour councillors resigned (that'll show Netanyahu, eh) but other than that, Labour has outwardly been clear that it believes Israel has a right to defend itself.

@deragod Thanks for posting that article - just skimmed it but seems to bring a lot of clarity as to how we arrived to where we are now, and why there's no place at the intersectional SJW's table for Jewish women. Will read properly later

I think the inevitable tensions and conflicts will break out after the election. Obviously he and his cabinet will direct the ship, but he will require co-operation from the back benches to get anything through. Most Left wingers really hate him they see him as Tory lite.

I'm thinking of other issues too - such as gender Self ID. Starmer is all over the place and speaks with a forked tongue - but you only have to look at the rest of the party to see how much they support Self Id; and how little support they have given Rosie Duffield, for example.

In my city there are local MPs and councillors who will always be at odds with Starmer, as they are still very much Corbynites. My local MP referred to Israel " a fascist state" ( and she had to apologise) and she has the Mermaids logo at the top of her twitter account.

That article is v interesting- thanks for sharing.