GC Feminism and Gaza/Israel

[auberginefortea]

I haven't seen a thread on this yet, and I'm genuinely interested to understand the intersection between different political stances. Where do most posters in this forum stand on Israel/Palestine?

From what I've seen, Julie Bindel has taken quite a strong stance in supporting Israel on Twitter/X. The TRAs I've seen seem to be a lot more pro Gaza/Palestine and anti-Israel.

Is there an intersection between views on gender and Israel/Palestine?

Personally, I'm GC (though not especially strident, more bemused and baffled) and my sympathies naturally lie with Israel (I'm a zionist in that I believe in Jewish State), but I also worry that Israel is going too far.

so that isn't celebrating the death of Palestinian children (in much the way the "trans hate" isn't A Thing on MN) because one idiot posted a twatty thing and it was then deleted. So in effect one person did something twatty, and the rest condemned it.

Recollections may vary....
It's easy to say something was said and then follow it up with 'and then deleted for hate speech' the sky's your limit.

People say this, but there is no evidence. Opinion pieces and perspectives are useful but they can only be context, not proof.

The evidence is the right wing are more anti semitic. I put this on another thread.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/10659129221111081

Turning this into left v. right is extremely unhelpful and polarising.
Extrapolating from there to a "GC viewpoint" even more so.

I was giving an example, it was horrific and deleted due to it. One of many that have also been deleted so obviously I can't link to them. Hardly an isolated incident.

All of the similar comments have been deleted so of course I can't show them. They have been deleted as hate speech. But if you want to deny they exist that's your prerogative. Ok.

Trawl back through the boards if you want more proof for the posts. Enough examples of deleted comments in the various threads. Maybe ask MN if you want to know.

Please, spare me the denial.

Do you want me to name names? Send screenshots of now deleted hate speech comments? I could but it's against MN rules. Feel free to trawl back through the boards, I am sure you will find plenty of evidence.

Wondering why some on here are so defensive. Denial seems to be a big thing on here from certain posters. Wonder why?

Question - do you honestly think MN would allow explicit hate speech of the nature I have described to remain on their boards?

That said I guess it makes a convenient excuse for you to deny it ever existed.

@mondriansdog I am not being defensive but it's a pretty big thing on here that if you say something has been said... particularly in that way there would be some evidence or reams of people rightly laying into them.

Or to be frank i could accuse people of anything and then say it's been deleted.

Denial is a huge thing on here. The shame I feel that women could deny what happened to women in Israel and then call themselves 'feminist's' is disgusting To me.

@RebelliousCow I think what you are saying is true and therefore it is confusing for those who are trying to work out where they fit politically. The right are the ronseal of political parties.... the left is so much more damaging as it's wrapped up in other things. Evidence or not you can't shout down those that are telling you they see it!

@mondriansdog of course not but those words are shocking and I would hope I would Remember them and the poster that said it.... much like I do antisemitic ones. Or rape apologists.

@stomachameleon be my guest. Trawl through some of the pro-Palestinian threads, look for deleted posts, and the outraged responses to those posts, I can guarantee you will find the evidence you need.

As you say, too much denial here on MN. Maybe you don't need to join in with it as well by denying there are some pro-Israel / anti-Palestinian posters posting offensive comments.

@mondriansdog I am as entitled to post on here as much as everyone else or are you of the ilk that it all has to go one way?

You specifically mentioned something..I have never said offensive things aren't posted. Both 'sides' have been guilty of that. Just that's it's quite impossible to prove ' children's deaths were celebrated'

I see you have backtracked on the 'celebration' part though so at least that's something.

Accusations like that have serious consequences.

I'm not denying they get deleted so stop that right now.

I am saying that these things are deleted because they are clearly a) abhorrent and b) not within the ethos of this site

That they get said is bad enough, but they are not being allowed to stand. If they WERE being allowed to stand I'd be out of here as would many others. But as long as posters are calling these things out, i don't think the issue is as awful as if they were allowed to stand.

The same goes for racism and any other hate- or bigoted-posts.

because, you know, we are pretty sure other people from other groups post things here, grab a screenshot and gleefully post in other places about how awful mn is - despite genuine other posters immediately flagging up the posts and requesting they be deleted.

I don't deny that there is probably (I am not an expert) a lot of subtle AS as well as overt AS going on here. But as long as it's being deleted i can live with it. I would rather it wasn't posted at all, but that is the downside of SM.

It was you who implied that the only real anti semitism was on the 'right'

There is plenty of evidence, and discussion, of the content of Marx's letters to Engels, and of Stalin's attitude towards the Russian Jews. It is there in B&W. Do some research.

"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money[...] An organization of society which would abolish the preconditions for huckstering, and therefore the possibility of huckstering, would make the Jew impossible[...] The Jew has emancipated himself in a Jewish manner, not only because he has acquired financial power, but also because, through him and also apart from him, money has become a world power and the practical Jewish spirit has become the practical spirit of the Christian nations. The Jews have emancipated themselves insofar as the Christians have become Jews[...] Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities[...] The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange[...] The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.

And this from Engels.......

From Engels in response to their discussions of 'the Jewish problem'

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/04/19.htm

Well the Palestinians elected Hamas. If it turns into a dictatorship, what is Israel supposed to do about it?

Do you agree with military action to get rid of Hamas? Because that's what Israel is doing now.

Having a state doesn't remove the problem of potential dictatorship.

I did not want to engage, but as I can see, some ‘anti-Zionist’ and ‘anti-colonisers’ are here already…. I am trying not to be angry, but I just cannot.

First of all, if you believe that you would be able to distinguish between a random Jew and a random Arab in Israel, you are either delusional or a follower of the Nuremberg Laws.

Second, the previous thread showed how little people know about Jews, Jewish history, and intellectual traditions but feel confident speaking on the subject. Awareness of what antisemitism is and its history is also minimal.

All of you anti-Zionists, do you even know who first came up with this slogan? And for what it was used for? Soviet propaganda. Western left (Corbyn being the prime example) often has a problem with calling the Soviet Union and Russia for what it is. Still, without going into much detail, it is a colonial empire with different rationales behind it, but a colonial power with a long history of genocide and racism.

Jews were very welcome to leave Soviet Russia for Israel when getting a passport was difficult. Oh, it worked wonders for internal politics!
In March 68*, Poland, influenced by Moscow, expelled thousands of people to Israel. In the name of anti-Zionism with the idea that the Arab League, with help from the Soviet Union, would once and for all deal with the Jewish problem.

Also, Palestine and Israel are not the only countries that emerged on the map after WWII.
Israel is not the only ‘ethnostate’ in the world. In fact, you all live in one.
If you really care about women and children, you should hope that Israel will succeed in destroying Hamas.

*https://polin.pl/en/march-68

And a picture, of a father, a survivor, with his son, who he thinks sees for the last time. All in the name of 'Anti-zionism'.
https://www.jmberlin.de/diskussion-polnische-perspektiven#lightbox-7275

@Brefugee

I'm a bit confused here that I am getting laid into when my original comment on this matter was in response to a poster (purplechrayne) who said:

"My main takeaway from this hellish couple of months online and offline is that the pro-Palestinian/pro-Hamas faction has more than a lot in common with TRAs when it comes to the quality and delivery of their arguments. Rude, offensive, vulgar, doxxing, murderous doesn't even cover it."

I was simply pointing out that the same is going on from some posters on the other side. Then loads of people piled on and denied or minimised that it was happening. To which I countered with what I had experienced and seen and was still denied and minimised.

So that poster is allowed to assert their opinion, but I am not allowed to assert mine on the same topic? And when I do it gets minimised and denied and I get shut down.

@stomachameleon I haven't backtracked on anything at all. please don't twist my words.

@stomachameleon and I happen to think "appreciating the death of Palestinian children" because they "are all terrorists" is a form of celebrating the death of Palestinian children, yes.

RebelliousCow, I had relatives murdered by Hitler and relatives murdered by Stalin, but yes the left (and I am on the left) have barely begun to acknowledge - let alone examine - left antisemitism.

The OP asks if there's an intersection between GC views and Israel/Palestine. To me, there is.

David Baddiel makes the argument that 'Jews Don't Count'. In other words, people say, 'We stand for social justice, but obviously Jews are just white colonialist oppressors and deserve everything that's coming to them: violence against Jews is evidence of kindness and morality'.

I was at the WPUK meeting in Manchester when trans activists and allies shouted through megaphones and tried to storm the meeting. Many of the women inside (many migrants who had been through hell) were terrified. But to those screaming outside, those of us inside were scum, haters, Nazis.

The people with the megaphones were saying: 'TERFS Don't Count'. In other words, 'We stand for social justice, but obviously TERFS are just hateful bigots and deserve everything that's coming to them: violence against TERFS is evidence of kindness and morality'.

I've always been on the left and pro-Palestine. I'm now rethinking my politics, and my views on Israel/Palestine.

I’ll post what I choose to post.

And this is a important poll, shows the views of the average israelis.

Not just terfs don't count. Women don't count. Even if they invite everyone to their meeting, including men and trans people, if the meeting is about women-y things, they stay outside and throw a tantrum.

No I didn't. I said I was surprised to see far right parties like the AFD being so vocal in their support for Israel. And I said lots of posters assert "the left" is antisemitic and then use opinion and anecdote to back that up. The evidence that exists shows antisemitic attitudes are more prevalent in right leaning people than left leaning people.

I don't know anything about Marx and Stalin except they are communists and quite far from what I think of as "the left" in todays UK context.

I'm fairly sure the premature babies forced to die alone in a Gaza hospital weren't Hamas members.

Do you agree with military action to get rid of Hamas? Yes, with international support and a plan for what happens next

Because that's what Israel is doing now. No it isn't. What the Israeli Government is doing now is a total siege and non surgical bombing of a city of 2.5 million people. 90% of those people are now displaced, 50% are at risk of starvation. The Hamas leadership aren't even there I don't think. So this action isn't going to "get rid of Hamas" and that's why I don't support it.

Added onto that the upswing of activity in the West Bank and the illegal settlements, plus the way the administration talks and it starts to look a lot more like the current Israeli government just want the Palestinians gone. Which is obviously quite different to "getting rid of Hamas"

Solidarity mondrians.
Some posters want this to be an echo chamber.