GC Feminism and Gaza/Israel

[auberginefortea]

I haven't seen a thread on this yet, and I'm genuinely interested to understand the intersection between different political stances. Where do most posters in this forum stand on Israel/Palestine?

From what I've seen, Julie Bindel has taken quite a strong stance in supporting Israel on Twitter/X. The TRAs I've seen seem to be a lot more pro Gaza/Palestine and anti-Israel.

Is there an intersection between views on gender and Israel/Palestine?

Personally, I'm GC (though not especially strident, more bemused and baffled) and my sympathies naturally lie with Israel (I'm a zionist in that I believe in Jewish State), but I also worry that Israel is going too far.

That research is ancient though!

I mean 2009 was 14 years ago and approx 47% of the population of Gaza is under 18, so I wouldn't say it particularly suggests that at all.

oh yes, i love her.

disappointing to hear about AS on the board. That's appalling, tbh

There is recent polling for the attack on Israel.

I know the difference between men and women, I demand that women have our human rights and I want an end to the genocide in Palestine.

I have zero in common with Zionists on this issue and cannot understand how any human can watch the collective punishment of Palestinian children and support the bombers.

Sometimes I despair that the English only have empathy for people that look like them.

I think that being automatically and unquestioningly pro Palestine and being TWAW are both part of the same box of ready made left wing student union opinions that people like Owen Jones automatically have without necessarily thinking about them. So I would expect there to be a correlation between being TWAW and pro-Palestine, as well as, e.g. pro Jeremy Corbyn.

I would expect gender critical feminists, being people who actually think things through from multiple angles and don't get their political views in a convenient multi pack from whatever political tribe they signed up to 20 years ago, to be more in the "it's more complicated than that" camp.

I also think that gender critical feminists, as well as women such as Posie Parker who don't specifically identify as gender critical feminists but are fighting the same battle, are quite diverse. There are women in this group who are much more left wing than me and women who are much more right wing than me, such as, for example, the former Brexit Party MEP Belinda de Lucy, who I disagree with about most political issues but generally agree with on this issue. So I would not expect all gender critical feminists to be a hive mind on Israel/Palestine or indeed any other issue. We aren't even all a hive mind on gender critical feminism, for that matter. But since we all care passionately about women's rights and child safeguarding, it's not surprising to see many women on here saying they are on the side of the innocent women and children caught up in this, regardless of whether they are Israeli or Palestinian.

Sometimes I despair that the English only have empathy for people that look like them.

who looks English between Palistians and the diversity that exists in Israel? Or are you assuming all Israelis are white?

Not sure what you mean by that.

I have huge sympathy for the people of palestine. Then i saw the pictures of that young woman bleeding from somewhere in her jogging pants - and all bets were off for me. So it is clear they are going to terrorise each other until either one stops or there is nobody left to terrorise on one side.

In the meantime women and children are suffering from the actions of men - and i don't care what those women and children look like. They shouldn't be collateral damage - but how to stop it happening?

I'm getting on a bit in years, but I still keep wondering if I'm terminally naive. I was so so shocked by how many GC women I have great respect for support the actions of the IDF, some of them even assuming that not doing so implies supporting Hamas. We know that there are men in any country, of any religion, that will use opportunities to rape and torture women. Do supporters of Israel really think that none of the Palestinian women and children who were imprisoned or disappeared long before October 7 suffered such crimes at the hands of Israeli sadists?

If it's a matter of degree, which mothers among us wouldn't rather suffer the worst that Hamas dealt out than see our children buried in rubble, or not have a drink of fresh water to offer them?

I often think that the word "feminism" is one of those extremely ill-defined words, with very different meanings for different individuals, but I'd have hoped that feminists in general would be more focused on solidarity with women in all countries, and not prioritize which women are more deserving of safety because of which culture they were born into. It's maddening to see the narrative driven by large scale male violence. In our own countries, rape is brushed under the carpet, ignored and unprosecuted, (or used for titillating entertainment) while also being used as a goad to encourage more violence abroad. I can't stand it.

If it's a matter of degree, which mothers among us wouldn't rather suffer the worst that Hamas dealt out than see our children buried in rubble, or not have a drink of fresh water to offer them?

This sounds very close to minimising the rapes and sexual violence perpetrated by Hamas on 7 October to me.

As terrible as civilian casualties are, it's nothing like a genocide.

How many civilians died in other wars? That's just, horrifically, a part of what happens in war.

I view both sides as Middle Eastern.

In the case of Hamas, they have a supremacist ideology and in theory they aren't just at war with Israel but would claim a "right" to invade other territories.

Israel is on the front line. Hamas is our enemy also. They would kill us next if they could.

If it's a matter of degree, which mothers among us wouldn't rather suffer the worst that Hamas dealt out than see our children buried in rubble, or not have a drink of fresh water to offer them?

No, I wouldn't choose to be raped to death. Not even to give my child a drink of water, and I find that abhorrent. Its emotionally manipulative and it doesn't solve anything.

Feminism is not a death cult and does not demand women sacrifice themselves for others. Women are fully human and deserve human rights.

Is it true that the top 3 leaders of Hamas are collectively worth more than £11 billion? Is it true that Hamas used aid to build tunnels instead of an infrastructure?

Is there evidence that the IDF regularly - and not on single occasions where the soldier is out of control - carry out rape as a weapon of oppression?

If so - they are as bad as Hamas. And in a way worse because they would be acting like state sponsored terrorists if they do that.

And no - i would rather my kids die than me and/or any of them are raped to death.

Just a reminder to confused pps:

Feminism is the revolutionary idea that women aren't treated worse than men just because of their sex.

As an ordinary man, I am absolutely baffled by even the concept of "rape so violent it leaves women’s pelvises broken”. That level of violence is utterly abhorrent; but I could not conceive of the physical act of rape that could result in a broken pelvis. I actually cannot understand physically forced rape at all, as compared with coercive or non-consensual sexual intercourse which are disgusting but conceivable. Probably I was naïve and didn’t have a mental concept of the use of ‘implements’.

I think your previous post is spot on. I am tempted to say “a plague on both their houses”, meaning Hamas and the Israeli government, but as always it is the ordinary people who suffer from the actions of violent men and their enablers, and women often bear the brunt of it. Vengeance as a motivation for extreme violence is an awful thing, and in the past the ‘solution’ has often been an outright defeat for one or other party. I could not rejoice in victory for either side in this case. I sometimes wonder if it is a necessary and inevitable step, but ‘victory’ for one side would probably lead to further acts of defiance and vengeance.

I think that being automatically and unquestioningly pro Palestine and being TWAW are both part of the same box of ready made left wing student union opinions that people like Owen Jones automatically have without necessarily thinking about them. So I would expect there to be a correlation between being TWAW and pro-Palestine, as well as, e.g. pro Jeremy Corbyn.

Yes, I think.there is a lot of truth in this.

To the posters upthread who say they are anti-Zionist - what do you understand this to mean? Zionism is the belief in a Jewish homeland, ie that Israel has a right to exist. Are you against this and if so what do you want to happen to Israel?

I fall into the non category of people who can see elements of things I dislike and do not agree with in all directions.

I cannot understand why people cannot live together in harmony. I deplore the structures that put weapons in the hands of children and young adults, that build systems and social structures designed to dehumanise other humans and carry out violent acts.

I believe that if women had an equal share of money, voice and power, that the world would be a better place for everyone. I am an idealist.

I march for peace. I march to ask all parties to put down their weapons. I don't know what the answer is. I am naive. I believe in the fundamental good nature of the human race. I see how easy it is to grow hate from a small seed, to nourish it with rhetoric and to believe in the right to hold power over land.

It breaks me to watch humans put themselves above other humans and to undermine my belief in the good of humanity.

I cannot understand why men do not see women as equals in humanity either. I do not want to believe that men wish women harm. I respect everybody's right to dress how they please and to love who they please.

I stuggle with the fact that we have fought to be recognised as equals and now we have to fight to have our differences recognised.

As with many things in life.. those who are unable to give a straight answer, have often struggled to define their own stance on an issue and therefore defend their position less strongly because no one is 100% right anymore than anyone is 100% wrong.

Zionism is the belief in a Jewish homeland, ie that Israel has a right to exist.

Unfortunately it’s more complicated. Some Zionists are extreme politically and religiously, and there are those who believe that Israel has a right to the widest interpretation of historical borders as depicted in the Jewish scriptures. Some Zionists, as I understand it, see Zionism as Opalfru1ty has described it.

I'm a GC feminist and a zionist. I also bitterly oppose the current Israeli government and the settlers. I believe that Israelis and Palestinians both have a valid claim to the land and so peace will be achieved via political negotiation not military victory.

I'm not sure there is a connection, other than my willingness to lose friends. I really hate brainless group think, rewriting history and denial of complexity.

No, I wouldn't choose to be raped to death. Not even to give my child a drink of water, and I find that abhorrent. Its emotionally manipulative and it doesn't solve anything.
Feminism is not a death cult and does not demand women sacrifice themselves for others. Women are fully human and deserve human rights.

Of course it wouldn't solve anything. I thought feminism was anything but a death cult, that's why I can't understand how can any feminist can support killing thousands of people, including women and girls. I'm sure they're fully human and deserve human rights. How can the current actions of the IDF solve anything any more than the actions of Hamas? It's just more violence.

i don't think anyone here is supporting the killing of anyone, tbh.

But what can a bunch of women do, realistically? If we march for peace, no matter what flags we carry or what is on our placards, someone will be along calling us nazis and baby murderers.

And so what we do is say: no, not in my name. And lobby. And write letters and emails. And then we are there when the pieces need picking up we contribute in some way to that, whether through donations of food, time, money, clothes or just visual support by writing about it.

There is no answer to this question that doesn't put someone's nose out of joint. And right now the warmongers have the upper hand. But as a feminist? for sure i have a position on this. And it is that yet again women and children suffer for men's greed and vanity.

Well yes, there are extremists on both sides. But essentially Zionism is the belief in a Jewish homeland which is why I feel quite frightened when I see Brits claiming to be anti-Zionist. At best I hope they are just uninformed.

Apologies for the derail but I feel this is an important point, given that "I'm anti-Zionist" has already been stated a couple of times on this thread alone.

I don't see why any of us have to pick a side, but it seems that's what most people want.

fair enough - because the only talk about Zionist Jewish people that i have seen are the ones who are moving wholesale into areas previously occupied by Palistinians.

And yes, Jewish people need to have a homeland, that is clear. But so do Palastinians. And given that both of them (if not more groups) want to occupy the same land - they can either try to kill each other until the last team standing get it, or they can engage in proper negotiations about how to make it work.

Without raping and pillaging.

I don't see why any of us have to pick a side, but it seems that's what most people want.

And why are the sides getting picked defined in terms that are so convenient for the "powers that be?"

Why can't enough of us pick the side of everyday decent people, regardless of their country or how horrible their rulers are, as opposed to the people who are in positions to, and are willing to, harm or exploit others on the scale we're seeing now? All the problems we have, and I hear news reports about fucking weapon shortages. Simple solidarity seems so impossible, I'm not sure our species can go on like this much longer.

I'm just going to repeat what I said on the anti-semitism board about my reasons for being pro-Zionism:

I suck my teeth a bit about the idea of an ethno-nationalist state also being democratic. But of all the people in the world, surely the Jews deserve it. The safety of Jews everywhere depends on there always being a Jewish majority in the Knesset.

So for me Zionism means allowing vulnerable and oppressed people their own space. I'm also in favour of women-only spaces, even though some individual women are really powerful. Coincidence? You decide.