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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC Feminism and Gaza/Israel

155 replies

auberginefortea · 14/12/2023 03:17

I haven't seen a thread on this yet, and I'm genuinely interested to understand the intersection between different political stances. Where do most posters in this forum stand on Israel/Palestine?

From what I've seen, Julie Bindel has taken quite a strong stance in supporting Israel on Twitter/X. The TRAs I've seen seem to be a lot more pro Gaza/Palestine and anti-Israel.

Is there an intersection between views on gender and Israel/Palestine?

Personally, I'm GC (though not especially strident, more bemused and baffled) and my sympathies naturally lie with Israel (I'm a zionist in that I believe in Jewish State), but I also worry that Israel is going too far.

OP posts:
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aModernClassic · 14/12/2023 15:12

ChaToilLeam · 14/12/2023 06:13

I’m a GC feminist and my sympathies are with Israel. As a woman I know where I’d be best off in the Middle East. The whole “Queers for Palestine” thing is laughable, they wouldn’t last 5 minutes there.

Hamas must be eradicated for the good of everyone, they don’t care how many Palestinian lives are lost in their quest to destroy Israel and Jews.

I feel the same. My beliefs on how women are treated and how they should be respected are more aligned with Israelis.

FPNFL · 14/12/2023 15:43

Many Israeli Jews do not support the Israeli government yet both are suffering for their actions.

That’s not really true.

”Poll results were also hawkish when it came to the use of force in Gaza: 57.5% of Israeli Jews said that they believed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) were using too little firepower in Gaza, 36.6% said the IDF was using an appropriate amount of firepower, while just 1.8% said they believed the IDF was using too much fire power, while 4.2% said they weren’t sure whether it was using too much or too little firepower.”

https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/

Unless by not supporting israeli goverment you mean most of them want more bombing and death to Palestinians.

What Israelis Think of the War With Hamas

New polls give insight into how Israelis view the hostage crisis, the use of force in Gaza, and their leadership.

https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/

puncheur · 14/12/2023 16:01

Opalfru1ty · 14/12/2023 14:18

Well yes, there are extremists on both sides. But essentially Zionism is the belief in a Jewish homeland which is why I feel quite frightened when I see Brits claiming to be anti-Zionist. At best I hope they are just uninformed.

Apologies for the derail but I feel this is an important point, given that "I'm anti-Zionist" has already been stated a couple of times on this thread alone.

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic is correct: It is more complicated than that. There are substantial numbers of Jews, both within Israel and in the diaspora, who are anti-Zionist. Anti-Zionism is a tenant among many Hasidic groups.

GC Feminism and Gaza/Israel
ToBeOrNotToBee · 14/12/2023 16:10

Hamas are monsters. The end.

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 16:20

@puncheur but unless I have misunderstood completely that is for purely religious reasons?

Opalfru1ty · 14/12/2023 16:45

puncheur · 14/12/2023 16:01

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic is correct: It is more complicated than that. There are substantial numbers of Jews, both within Israel and in the diaspora, who are anti-Zionist. Anti-Zionism is a tenant among many Hasidic groups.

I'm sorry but this is completely disingenuous. There are some.groups of very religious Jews who believe the Jewish homeland will.be delivered by God and not through secular politics. That is why they are against Israel. They are pulled out as some kind of handy trump card in discussions such as this one but it is meaningless as an argument and does not take away from the meaning of Zionism, which is the belief in a Jewish homeland, as I stated above.

So to the people who casually claim that they're not antisemitic, but just anti-Zionist, you either need to revisit the definition and check that this is what you mean, or...well, I guess own up to the fact that you don't believe Israel has a right to exist.

DewHopper · 14/12/2023 17:28

HagoftheNorth · 14/12/2023 06:38

I’m disappointed by how the media has been so coy about what actually happened on 7th October, and about how Hamas celebrated and said they would do the same again. Hamas still hold hostages, the sexual violence against them may well still be ongoing, Hamas still fire into Israel. I realise it is hugely distressing, but without that context, it’s difficult to understand the Israeli response. I don’t see how they can just pretend all that didn’t happen. GC feminists are interested in women, and used to doing their own research.

I also abhor the settler violence in the West Bank, and I think the impacts on the Gazan population are absolutely horrific. Both of these are highly likely to lead to more violence against Israel in the future, I don’t think this is the best outcome that was available on 7th October for anyone.

I do find it shocking that there are protests unquestioningly supporting Gaza without any apparent recognition of what happened in Israel. More interestingly, numerous Muslims I know or have overheard chatting are astonished at what some see as unquestioning white support for Hamas - and they don’t think of that as a good thing

This

PorcelinaV · 14/12/2023 18:12

Opalfru1ty · 14/12/2023 16:45

I'm sorry but this is completely disingenuous. There are some.groups of very religious Jews who believe the Jewish homeland will.be delivered by God and not through secular politics. That is why they are against Israel. They are pulled out as some kind of handy trump card in discussions such as this one but it is meaningless as an argument and does not take away from the meaning of Zionism, which is the belief in a Jewish homeland, as I stated above.

So to the people who casually claim that they're not antisemitic, but just anti-Zionist, you either need to revisit the definition and check that this is what you mean, or...well, I guess own up to the fact that you don't believe Israel has a right to exist.

Yeah, presumably those Jews are kind of "Zionist" also, but just in a different way.

Ketzele · 14/12/2023 18:31

puncheur, there are large numbers of Israelis and Jews working for peace. But most are not anti zionist. The vast majority of Jews are zionist, though that covers a wide range of beliefs, from left to right-wing, from pro to anti Netanyahu.

There are some small Hasid groups, like the Naturei Karta, who are anti zionist for religious reasons (basically, that Jews cannot return to Israel until the Messiah returns). They are such a tiny fringe group and so unrepresentative.

There are also small antizionist leftwing groups - like Jewdas and the JSG - but again they're very fringe.

This is one of the problems with the term zionism. Many people interpret it narrowly as meaning anti-Palestinian, pro-Netanyahu, pro-settlement, but for most Jews it means simply supporting the existence of Israel, and the vast majority of them do that.

mzdemeanour · 14/12/2023 19:04

Ketzele · 14/12/2023 18:31

puncheur, there are large numbers of Israelis and Jews working for peace. But most are not anti zionist. The vast majority of Jews are zionist, though that covers a wide range of beliefs, from left to right-wing, from pro to anti Netanyahu.

There are some small Hasid groups, like the Naturei Karta, who are anti zionist for religious reasons (basically, that Jews cannot return to Israel until the Messiah returns). They are such a tiny fringe group and so unrepresentative.

There are also small antizionist leftwing groups - like Jewdas and the JSG - but again they're very fringe.

This is one of the problems with the term zionism. Many people interpret it narrowly as meaning anti-Palestinian, pro-Netanyahu, pro-settlement, but for most Jews it means simply supporting the existence of Israel, and the vast majority of them do that.

This

EdithStourton · 14/12/2023 19:09

Anti-Zionism is a tenant among many Hasidic groups.
Not amongst the Chassidim I have known and worked for. It's only really the Neturei Karta who oppose the state of Israel in my experience, and that is entirely for religious reasons: they believe there should only be a Jewish state when the Messiah returns. They are not Chassidim. They are Charedi. Not the same thing.

As for the poster upthread (@Coyoacan I think) who said the 'the English' only seem to be capable of sympathising with people who look like them - FFS! Remind me again in which country Oxfam was founded, and Lepra etc etc. Also, go and visit Israel: a good half of Jewish Israelis are of Middle Eastern, North African and Ethiopian descent. Many of them are in Israel not because of some overwhelming urge to colonise, but because they or their parents or grandparents were chucked out of countries where their communities had lived for centuries (in the case of Iraq, I think millennia).

mondriansdog · 14/12/2023 21:10

FloweryName · 14/12/2023 07:20

I’m GC, anti Zionist and very much pro Palestinian. Nothing about how I feel about the appalling treatment of Palestinians over the last 70 years could spill over into pro TRA thinking, that would make no sense.

Most of this although I support innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilians. I am against what IDF are doing to Palestinians and against Hamas. I am against how Palestinians are systemically discriminated against by Israeli govt and settlers.

donquixotedelamancha · 14/12/2023 21:32

HagoftheNorth · 14/12/2023 07:02

don, yet I’ve seen people commenting about the rapes as an attempt to impregnate Israeli women.

Rape for that purpose isn’t gang rape so violent it leaves women’s pelvises broken; it isn’t conducted with knives and other implements; and it isn’t followed up by mutilation and then murder. There is a reason that some of the witnesses were so traumatised that they committed suicide. I didn’t see anything which even came close to suggesting the horror on MSM

The headlines of major mews never put that level of detail about atrocities, for obvious reasons. The details are in the media if you want to find them and, more importantly, the videos Hamas themselves shot are available.

I think anyone who makes such ridiculous arguments tends to refuse to watch any source that contradicts their worldview. Those who acknowledge the existence of the rape videos claim they are faked IME.

wiffin · 14/12/2023 22:06

The whole thing is a horrific mess. And yes I am on the side of those who look like me. The women and their children. I don't support either 'side'. They have all committed atrocities and neither work for peace.

I cannot see how anything good will come of it. Just more pain and hate.

What has any of this got to do with being GC?

OhCareerSuicide · 14/12/2023 22:06

I understand and am empathetic to the Jewish desire for a Jewish controlled state, but I can’t see that it works practically.

whilst there has always been a Jewish population in the Middle East, the founding of Israel basically displaced Arab populations (what we now call Palestinians) who were also living there. The argument that Jews have lived in the region for millennia is all well and good, but so have other populations, and the whole region has at various points been controlled by the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Crusaders (and many more).

It’s the same basic story over much of the modern world, western influences came and enforced hard borders on areas where populations were originally not so geographically defined, or at least where populations were not homogenous or unified within those borders. The founding of Israel is basically concurrent with the India/Pakistan border which was also horrific for citizens at that time.

Then comes a series of wars and by the mid to later part of the 20th century Israel has gained more land. But since then, settlers have continued to force the Palestinians off their land which drives aggression. This war was, unfortunately, to some extent inevitable.

A two-state solution is surely the answer, but I can’t see it happening easily (if at all), not when both sides want all the land. And I do struggle with the idea of creating a country just for one group/ethnicity. It seems to run contrary to all modern thinking on equality.

That said, I do see that Israel was necessary after ww2, but it doesn’t seem like a good solution through contemporary eyes. I also don’t know how to fix it because it can’t be destroyed now either, and peace in the region seems out of reach.

And much of the modern instability in the Middle East generally can be routed back to British and/or American activity in the contemporary history; the Iranian revolution, the Iraq war, Syria. Frankly, it’s a mess, and I don’t support one particular side over another.

Coolstorysis · 14/12/2023 22:11

FloweryName · 14/12/2023 07:20

I’m GC, anti Zionist and very much pro Palestinian. Nothing about how I feel about the appalling treatment of Palestinians over the last 70 years could spill over into pro TRA thinking, that would make no sense.

Agree.

Coolstorysis · 14/12/2023 22:16

Left and right have ceased to have any meaning. Anyone who opposes TRA rhetoric is called hard right Hmm. Right just means wrong now to some, which is par for the course in newspeak, didn't zionists and Bush Jr etc used be called neoliberals? Liberal is another word that has ceased to have any meaning.

Brefugee · 15/12/2023 08:00

wiffin · 14/12/2023 22:06

The whole thing is a horrific mess. And yes I am on the side of those who look like me. The women and their children. I don't support either 'side'. They have all committed atrocities and neither work for peace.

I cannot see how anything good will come of it. Just more pain and hate.

What has any of this got to do with being GC?

agree.

I think relating it to GC is a (possibly disingenuous?) attempt to say that people who are generally TRA have been publicly seen to be pro-Palestine and anti-Israel in a blind "support the little guy" knee-jerk reaction rather than having thought about the issues, the actions and then coming to a conclusion (which may well be pro-Palestine and anti-Israel, but at least with some thought rather than hitching your wagon to the latest trendy thing)

For me it comes down to: there are two sides whose soul aim is to obliterate the other and are not prepared to compromise.

And in the middle there are innocent victims of these two sides, who have no say in what happens (often in their names) and are the ones whose side i am on here.

And as we so often say, i don't see people in Palestine trying to identify into or out of their opression by adopting a different gender identity. They are desperate people trying to survive the next day/hour/minute in so many cases. The rainbowflagsforPalestine are bizarre.

AdamRyan · 15/12/2023 08:26

I agree with twitter and brefugee.

As much as there is antisemitism on threads, there is also islamophobia.

It's all horrifically divisive, lots of misinformation and propaganda on both sides, lots of downright inaccuracies and incorrect statements being posted on threads. For example, I keep seeing that the Hamas charter calls for the eradication of all Jews. Its only yesterday when I actually read it and read some other posters analysis of it I found it doesn't say that explicitly.

I think its possible to entirely condemn Hamas actions on 7th October and to think the Israeli government response is disproportionately violent and killing far too many civilians. Some people seem to feel that "Hamas started it" is a reasonable stance but I can't see continued escalations and retaliation will get us anywhere.

I also don't think there is any correlation between GC views and views on Israel. I think there is a tendency to group think and ideological purity by some GC people and an implication that "GC feminists are pro Israeli government" is part of that "them and us" mentality.

PorcelinaV · 15/12/2023 08:36

@OhCareerSuicide

A two-state solution is surely the answer, but I can’t see it happening easily (if at all), not when both sides want all the land.

Israel doesn't want all the Palestinian territories, and has been willing to agree peace.

They completely pulled out of Gaza. It didn't get them peace with the other side.

There may be some Jewish fundamentalists that think they have a divine right to the land, but that's not Israel's policy.

GoodOldEmmaNess · 15/12/2023 08:51

For some reason, this thread title and original post makes me feel quite angry. Why on earth should there be any mapping of views on gender with views on the Israel/Palestine conflict? And why would it be a pressing question to ask, except to play into the current obsession with playing the player and not the ball.

The question seems to indicate how far we have all gone down the rabbit hole of judging and assessing stances/tribes instead of observing and analysing reality.

Honestly, I completely despair about our ability to handle political duscussion these days. So much that I see on Mumsnet about the Israel/Palestine conflict seems to be contorted into the current tribalist fashions of social media discourse.

BigHaircut · 15/12/2023 08:55

I totally agree, @GoodOldEmmaNess
My thoughts are with the women and children. Why try to make it something it's not.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/12/2023 08:59

For some reason, this thread title and original post makes me feel quite angry. Why on earth should there be any mapping of views on gender with views on the Israel/Palestine conflict?

Why wouldn't there be? I think it is an interesting question.

BigHaircut · 15/12/2023 09:01

And I also think this is a pretty ignorant and racist comment from a PP:

Sometimes I despair that the English only have empathy for people that look like them.

Does this mean skin colour? I'm English. What colour is my skin?