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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What's going on with Genspect?

839 replies

MalagaNights · 12/11/2023 17:51

I've seen Stella O'Malley tweet about being unfairly attacked.
I've seen a weird exchange from James Lindsay about feminists trying to take down Genspect.

But I can't work out what's happened or who is fighting with who.

Any ideas?

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45
PencilsInSpace · 13/11/2023 09:29

Genspect /SoM seem to have some issues with boundaries. This is hardly the first time they've been called on it and become outraged in response.

Reading SSA tweet felt like groundhog day. Here we are again ...

If your organisation deals in any way with either children or their parents, or policy that affects them, then you DO need to understand #safeguarding. If you do not have a thorough understanding of safeguarding including #SaferRecruitment your organisation will always be vulnerable to infiltration, resulting in harm to the vulnerable

https://twitter.com/safeschools_uk/status/1723794527813587166

Honestly I think they need to create two very separate 'arms' of their organisation:

One for the children and families stuff, placing safeguarding at the absolute forefront of everything they do

A separate one to do all the 'fascinating' interviews and championing of AGPs and creepy sexologists

At the moment it's all kind of smerged together and they react extremely defensively when asked to consider the safeguarding implications of this.

OldCrone · 13/11/2023 09:33

GhostOrchid · 13/11/2023 08:34

It’s not that women get aroused putting on bras and nice dresses, which I’ve seen AGP’s claim. It’s that some women are attracted to the idea of themselves as men. He seems to have uncovered some anecdotal evidence to back it up.

Yes, I know what he meant. As I said, this has been claimed before. What is his evidence? Can you post a link?

I think the prevalence of cross-dressing men, which is a sexually motivated act, is about 3%. If the equivalent actually occurs in women, which I have yet to see any evidence for, the numbers must be tiny. Paraphilias are much more common in males.

RhymesWithOrange · 13/11/2023 09:33

Heather Heyer's article was good. I'd add that the man's choice to wear a dress at that conference took up time and energy and emotion better spent on helping women and children. When a man acts in this way it becomes all about him. Ditto Debbie Hayton's attempts in the debate.

Why aren't men's organisations having majority-male conferences to discuss how men's fetishes are making women and children unsafe? And how to prevent it? Why is it up to women to solve men's problems, yet again?

ArthurbellaScott · 13/11/2023 09:47

'“The thing is not the thing. It’s not about gender. Or race. Or Covid. Or Ukraine. Or Israel… They are not what they appear to be. The thing is not the thing. It’s about revolution.” Weirdly enough, the thing has very much become the thing for many people; indeed some people have become obsessed with issues such as gender roles, gender expressions and gender conformity.'

That's the Lindsay quote, from Stella O'Malley's 'The Split'. I don't know what he means about 'revolution'. Perhaps more context is needed, although Lindsay's context can be quite exhausting ime.

Anyway. The thing we should be 'obsessed' with if we have any sense is power.

WarriorN · 13/11/2023 09:49

Honestly I think they need to create two very separate 'arms' of their organisation:

One for the children and families stuff, placing safeguarding at the absolute forefront of everything they do

A separate one to do all the 'fascinating' interviews and championing of AGPs and creepy sexologists

At the moment it's all kind of smerged together and they react extremely defensively when asked to consider the safeguarding implications of this.

Absolutely this, this is exactly what I've been thinking with all this being stirred up.

Freedom of speech and freedom of academic thought compromised safeguarding practise when working with children.

And this is what is happening time and time again with universities piping dodgy queer theory research directly into schools. The two are polar opposites and need to exist separately.

Only the things that are put through a fine filter with only children's best fully safeguarded interests at heart can influence any therapeutic work with children.

MalagaNights · 13/11/2023 09:52

PencilsInSpace · 13/11/2023 09:29

Genspect /SoM seem to have some issues with boundaries. This is hardly the first time they've been called on it and become outraged in response.

Reading SSA tweet felt like groundhog day. Here we are again ...

If your organisation deals in any way with either children or their parents, or policy that affects them, then you DO need to understand #safeguarding. If you do not have a thorough understanding of safeguarding including #SaferRecruitment your organisation will always be vulnerable to infiltration, resulting in harm to the vulnerable

https://twitter.com/safeschools_uk/status/1723794527813587166

Honestly I think they need to create two very separate 'arms' of their organisation:

One for the children and families stuff, placing safeguarding at the absolute forefront of everything they do

A separate one to do all the 'fascinating' interviews and championing of AGPs and creepy sexologists

At the moment it's all kind of smerged together and they react extremely defensively when asked to consider the safeguarding implications of this.

Yes I think this is right.

The conflation of safeguarding women and children with understanding the abnormal psychology of some men, is incongruous & needs to be separated.

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WarriorN · 13/11/2023 09:53

Who the funk is Lindsay anyway?

I get very concerned with any organisation who just platform people who happen to talk a lot on social media. Personal experience and opinion is one thing and has its place, lecturing and occupying the central space is another.

I've seen this on edutwitter. It started happening to me - but my extreme imposter syndrome forced me to dial back and it's been a slower burn via actual research.

MalagaNights · 13/11/2023 10:03

I think I get Lindsay's point that GC ideology has partly opened the door for narcissistic men to perform femininity publically, with the idea that gender norms are only oppressive and should be abolished.

This, alongside queer theory, has prioritised self expression above social responsibility as the highest value.

See my earlier posts about Disney male employees wearing women's dresses which was supported as fine by many GC feminists.

What we're now discovering is it's fine, depending on your motivation, which we mostly will not know.
So it's fine sometimes. Which is tricky.

At least I think that may be his point as he seems to just have spiralled into frantic weird attacks.

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AlisonDonut · 13/11/2023 10:27

Did any woman force men to wear dresses?

At one point men wearing make up and dresses was fine.

And now we are at men wearing make up and dresses makes them a woman and and so men with this fetish, and any other man who wants access to women's spaces is allowed it just because he also says words.

There is a boundary there somewhere.

Navigating it whilst bringing vulnerable people to your conference is part of your role as conference organiser.

Debbie Hayton is one example. It's his fault that girls are denied single sex spaces as he, as a teacher, wrote the policies that allowed boys and men into female spaces. Yet he is now signing 'Declaration of biological reality' statements. He is just trying to get in on the next phase because the boundary is the goal. But Genspect don't seem to be able to see that he is part of the problem, they seem to think bringing him on board is the solution. I'd like to know why.

ArthurbellaScott · 13/11/2023 10:46

'GC ideology' - what on earth is this supposed to be?

That humans are dimorphic and sex is immutable? It's not much of an 'ideology'.

MalagaNights · 13/11/2023 10:55

I think what has been argued for is a removal of any boundaries around 'gender' and what we're now realising is some boundaries in public spaces is necessary.

I guess a GC view would be the sexual frisson for agps only exists because of transgressing gender norms, but it seems the answer can't just abandoning norms as that is then a free for all for fetish men.
You'd have to somehow eradict the norms before removing the public rules to avoid this?

I think there's also an argument that men and women will always in some form separate in dress to accentuate and signal sexuality, so norms/ differences will always establish to some degree, and for some people transgressing those with always be thrilling.

Either of those views however means that a sudden abolishing of the current gender norms was going to lead to open fetishism.

It's almost as if gender isn't just a social construct and social norms have some utility.

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WarriorN · 13/11/2023 10:55

Ugh, that's why I hated the label GC as others have framed it as a homogeneous belief and now an ideology.

It's bs

RethinkingLife · 13/11/2023 10:57

The discussion on this thread is thought-provoking and the links contribute to that.

My instinctive position is with safeguarding and has elements of being

  • manipulated into seeming to accept breaches of the social contract that breach that safeguarding
  • used as a validation generator for individuals.

I don't have something coherent to express or propose. It's nonetheless useful to have to work my way around this and consider the present and the long term. Denton shows the power of strategic long term thinking.

WarriorN · 13/11/2023 10:58

Feminism is also about an over arching awareness of keeping women and children safe from male violence and abuse.

Feminism has also way been critical of gender stereotyping.

But also hard lines about sexual exploitation, coercion and abuse.

A great deal of gender stereotyping is driven by commercialism and the media, also of course porn.

There's some overly literal interpretations of "wear what you want."

ArthurbellaScott · 13/11/2023 10:59

Genspect appear to be saying that AGP is a sexual orientation, according to some posts I've seen on X?

That needs discussed.

MalagaNights · 13/11/2023 10:59

ArthurbellaScott · 13/11/2023 10:46

'GC ideology' - what on earth is this supposed to be?

That humans are dimorphic and sex is immutable? It's not much of an 'ideology'.

That gender is an oppressive social construct and should be abolished.

Lots of people who aren't GC agree with your statement.

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ArthurbellaScott · 13/11/2023 11:00

'gender is an oppressive social construct and should be abolished.'

Right. That's a reductive over simplification and doesn't seem especially helpful.

Feminists - you could call them 'gc' feminists if you like - are fighting for the removal of/mitigation of oppression. Not the removal of 'gender'.

MalagaNights · 13/11/2023 11:00

There's some overly literal interpretations of "wear what you want."

Well yes. There was bound to be.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/11/2023 11:03

Genspect /SoM seem to have some issues with boundaries. This is hardly the first time they've been called on it and become outraged in response.

Agree.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/11/2023 11:04

ArthurbellaScott · 13/11/2023 09:29

'Phil alluded to being adept at performance art and circus acrobatics. He’s putting on a good show, I’d say'

No shit.

Women need to learn about personality disorders. And how fetishism and paraphilia are deeply intertwined with them.

I'm not a professional but the dynamic here is loud and clear:

Some men get off on attention, even/especially negative attention
some men get off on disgust
some men get off on fooling people
some men get off on carrying on 'in plain sight'

Almost all of these aspects of fetish have one common factor:

non consensuality.

THIS.

WarriorN · 13/11/2023 11:26

Good thread to consider:

x.com/taniaamarshall/status/1723985747475407296?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

How does a group or organisation become infiltrated by a Narcissist/Dark Triad? This often begins by

  1. ‘ingratiating’ themselves, displaying charm and charisma to win trust.
  1. They exploit existing group dynamics, identifying and manipulating vulnerabilities. Subtle tactics include sowing discord, creating factions within the group, and undermining others' credibility.
  1. Over time, they may strategically align with influential members, isolate dissenters, and gradually assert control by exploiting power dynamics.
  1. Their ability to ‘mask’ manipulation with charm can make it very challenging for the group to recognize the destructive influence until significant damage is done. Vigilance, open communication, and awareness can help mitigate the impact of narcissistic individuals on a group.

Specific tactics narcissists may employ to infiltrate and eventually take over a group:

  1. Initial Charm:
Example: A narcissist may enter the group with excessive compliments, flattery, and apparent interest in others' opinions to quickly establish rapport.
  1. Identifying Vulnerabilities:
Example: Through subtle probing or observation, they may identify members' insecurities, fears, or desires, which they later exploit to manipulate individuals.
  1. Gaslighting:
Example: By subtly distorting facts or questioning others' perceptions, a narcissist can make individuals doubt their own judgment, fostering dependence on the narcissist for guidance.
  1. Creating Divisions:
Example: They might subtly fuel conflicts within the group, planting seeds of distrust or competition to weaken unity and create opportunities for manipulation.
  1. Projecting Confidence:
Example: Narcissists often exude unwavering confidence, making others more likely to follow their lead, especially during times of uncertainty or decision-making.
  1. Strategic Alliances:
Example: They may selectively align with influential members, forming alliances to consolidate power and control key aspects of the group.
  1. Isolating Dissenters:
Example: Narcissists might subtly undermine or exclude those who question their motives, isolating dissenters to eliminate opposition and strengthen their control. They may mock them, gaslight or ignore their concerns.
  1. Gradual Power Grab:
Example: Over time, they may position themselves in roles of authority, gradually consolidating decision-making power and influencing the group's direction.
  1. Manipulating Perception:
Example: Narcissists may use propaganda, misinformation, or selective storytelling to shape how the group perceives events, casting themselves in a favorable light.
  1. Exploiting Loyalty:
    They may demand unquestioning loyalty, creating a culture where members hesitate to challenge the narcissist, fearing repercussions.

  2. Group split(s)
    These tactics collectively erode trust, create dependency, and pave the way for the narcissist to take control of the group, often with detrimental consequences. They are often defined as ‘parasitic narcissists’ whose sole goal is to enter a group or organisation to take it over.

This is commonly seen in religions, politics, non profits, other groups, where many group splits occur and reoccur. A solid strong foundation in groups must include the groups purpose, values, safeguarding statutes, knowledge about parasitic narcissism and a clear prevention plan. A third party to assist in preventing and addressing the lack of awareness and insight that this is occurring is essential to the groups very survival.

WarriorN · 13/11/2023 11:26

That whole post is Tania Marshall

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 13/11/2023 11:31

The difficulty is it's normal clothes that many people are wearing and which are socially acceptable.

Socially acceptable? In the photo I can see what Phil Illy is wearing and I can see what other attendees are wearing. Yes, there could be many reasons to wear a blue sleeveless ballgown and tight long blue handless gloves to a conference, and no, I don't expect the organisers to police what people wear... but when you've explicitly stated it's your fetish that's rude and deserves an apology - not from Stella but from Illy.

And yes, I do think Stella slightly missed the point in her response. Not convinced it's worth a split but a false note in the symphony.

Maybe there's a need to split events rather than the organisation?

WarriorN · 13/11/2023 11:46

If he's autistic there's an added layer of complexity but as a teacher of autistic children we spend an awful lot of time communicating what is and isn't socially appropriate or acceptable. It's incredibly important and needs to be explicitly taught. Not excused.

A self recognised agp should be willing to learn about the impact of the fetish on others.

Obviously the age and stage of the child is relevant. And safeguarding once again underpins all of that.

WarriorN · 13/11/2023 11:47

WarriorN · 13/11/2023 11:26

That whole post is Tania Marshall

Is also autistic btw.