"TERF Island" - Pondering why we're so "TERFy"

[WitchyWitcherson]

I was pondering this morning, what do you think it is about the UK that makes us so critical of gender ideology in comparison to other English-speaking western cultures?

Is it that Scottish Gov have gone full gender-woo and we're able to see it happening on a smaller scale?
Is it the setup of our medical system that has put hurdles in the way of pharmaceutical orgs pushing medical transition?
Is it a culture of critical thinking, a history of good educational outcomes for girls?
A high number of people who don't follow mainstream religion, or at least aren't really radically religious?
The attrition of traditional gender roles over the last 50 years (although gender woo is reversing this trend)?

I think it's an interesting discussion anyway? Obviously it's incredibly complex!

Mn - thanks to those who care, none to those who post no one cares

But also the media is fairly split between captured left and non-captured right

In any country where media challenge has been taken out the whole gender lot gets taken more comprehensively

Very interesting question!
I have a big raft of American Facebook friends, due to a mutual interest group that is US-based.
I got loads of hate and lost friends by making a GC post [it was a scary time]
I think we are mostly fairly urban here with good communication networks. I felt that a lot of the Americans live in more isolated communities and like to stand out from their rather conservative society by embracing anything vaguely 'unconventional' or 'alternative'.
It's exciting and novel for them to meet someone non-conforming. In Britain we're blasé about eccentrics, perhaps?
They all post those memes along the lines of 'If your family rejects you, I'm your mom now' *sigh

Sorry you had such a tough time Veronica.
'I think we are mostly fairly urban here with good communication networks.'

I live in a rural part of the UK and none of the farmers I know are going to mistake a wether for a ewe!

Mumsnet is a massive bubble for this issue. I very much doubt gender ideaology would be on the list of top 10 concerns for 90% of the population.

Whether or not it is, people mostly still roll their eyes here at the excesses of gender identity ideology. We're not really believers in the absurd.

I love how GB looks like a little dinosaur on that image (well it does to me).

In Britain we're blasé about eccentrics, perhaps?

Quentin Crisp coined the phrase, 'I am one of the stately homos of England'. It was an awesome statement - not just in his book but on the Thames TV film of The Naked Civil Servant - in 1975!

We saw John Hurt again in CLAVDIVS in 1976, and that was quite the rollercoaster from Rome and Robert Graves.

Life of Brian came out in 1979, funded by another iconoclast George Harrison because he 'wanted to watch it'.

I was a teenager throughout all this, loving it, loving the artistic and creative rebellion, the freedom of expression, the boldness and the cleverness. Next stop Greenham ...

1. Conservative party is socially liberal so less polarisation on LGB issues
2. One of the most secular countries in the world so almost no religious conservatives to oppose
3. Keep calm and carry on mentality makes us suspicious of self-centred, me me me arguments.
4. Dislike of strong ideologies and political intransigence

Mumsnet is a massive bubble for this issue. I very much doubt gender ideaology would be on the list of top 10 concerns for 90% of the population.

This is a genuine question @Aaron95 and I am interested as to what you think: do you genuinely believe that "who is defined as a man or woman" is not going to be of interest for most people? Once it's clear it has nothing to do with being male or female?

Nicola Williams deserves a huge amount of credit. ‘Resistance’ seems to have happened earlier in the ‘cycle’ in the U.K., and it is therefore easier to make a difference. Still difficult and takes courage from individuals though.

Agree we have a long way to go; I do think Stonewall has insidiously crept in where it could, but I think the general population are more TERFy than other English-speaking western populations? Or maybe I'm mistaken; Australia seems quite taken in with gender ideology, but I've not really had an insight into the views of the general population there, I'm just going by what is going on based on recent legislative changes.

Mumsnet is a massive bubble for this issue. I very much doubt gender ideaology would be on the list of top 10 concerns for 90% of the population.

This may be true, but it ain't because 90% of the country believe humans can change sex!

Rather, this astroturfed movement has largely operated behind closed board room doors. Sure some people now notice the shouty trustafarians on the street trying to stop women talking about their trauma, but most of the country weren't party to major decisions such as that made by the NHS years ago to recognise gender ID over sex.

Also around 2015/16 was when I twigged that people were saying TW were literally women- that the definition of woman/man must change, and divorce from biology to.... well they haven't quite worked that out yet, being a woman is being womanish and don't you even know what that is? Wow so ignorant, but I'm not telling you because it will look bad if I state even one criterion of being a woman... but yeah society needs to organise itself based on that, yeah?

It was far easier to understand one another when trans meant "wanting to be the opposite sex" rather than "having a special feeling which is the thing that determines if you're a man, woman or neither"

I think that we owe a lot to 2nd wave, gender critical, Socialist feminism.

I think 90% of the people I know it really isn't at the top of their list of things to worry about me included and they aren't allowing it to affect their lives . I also think that there are a few on MN who although they are against trans ideology , they are absolutely obsessed with the subject .

Yes exactly.

MN and in particular this board cares more than the average about gender issues. It doesn't follow that the relatively unbothered mass of the population think TWAW.

Good point. Because the UK has been ahead of the pack wrt gay rights, having introduced CP and then equal marriage when we did, it was all well-established and very broadly accepted by the population by the time the TRA movement really kicked in. The opportunity for tie in wasn't there because we'd been there and done that.

There's also more structural analysis in UK politics than in eg the US, perhaps because of our attitudes to class and history of class politics. An inclination towards structural analysis means people are less fertile ground for a more identitarian approach.

Life of Brian came out in 1979, funded by another iconoclast George Harrison because he 'wanted to watch it'.

At the time Cleese and Palin had a televised debate with a Catholic journalist and the Bishop of Southwark over blasphemy laws and artistic freedom. Despite strong feelings, the debate remained civil. It used to be possible to disagree politely without claims of "literal violence", mob outrage and suicide/death threats.

I wish Dennis Pennis was still around to doorstop the likes of Izzard and some of the useful celebrity idiots.

I take it you don't live in Scotland?

Ah! Someone invoked my photo posting finger

I'm absolutely obsessed with the subject and happy to admit it - I find it fascinating, appalling, tragic, rage-inducing, thought-provoking and many other things that plenty of other subjects don't invoke in me.

I also find it strange how passive "90% of the population" (as two people have quoted as a statistic now) are towards the issue. I think it's because they just don't think enough about it, they assume it doesn't affect them - but it does.

Look at that page on the boots website that was shared earlier for instance - saying that menopause affects "people with vaginas" which is 1) categorically untrue since it's related to the ovaries and uterus and 2) confusing to those "90% of people" who "don't think about this stuff".

If 90% of people don't give a shit, why not use "woman"? Because we're pandering to MEN who think that they feel like women, and who tell women that dislike this to pipe down, to think about something that "matters" etc. etc. all whilst telling us that it really MATTERS to not use the word "woman".

"they aren't allowing it to affect their lives". By being passive, yes they ARE allowing it to affect their lives!

That was my first thought, but it occurred to me that it can't be just that, or all the women missing podium places would be smiling and saying, "Jolly good show, Harold! Erm, Helen!"

Naw, because it’s blatant cheating, innit?

Being a good sport means not entering the infant school sack race when you are 15 and in the United training school at weekends.

One of the biggest sports events I remember as a kid was Maradona’s ‘Hand of God’.

England did not like that very much (whereas simply losing a match was second nature and not really worth remarking on).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_hand_of_God

It’s relatively difficult to find the legging picture of Isla Bryson now.

Most photos seem to be cropped and just show Isla from the waist up.

On people not caring it depends how the issue is framed

If someone says ‘trans issues’ or similar it’s not language I relate to

If someone asks me to rate women’s rights it gets a lot higher

Anything to do with compelled speech, men forcing themselves into sports and spaces and the public has more to say

An image like the Isla Bryson one and you can get a fair go at a politician with media and public backlash

But he looks so cute in those leggings!