"TERF Island" - Pondering why we're so "TERFy"

[WitchyWitcherson]

I was pondering this morning, what do you think it is about the UK that makes us so critical of gender ideology in comparison to other English-speaking western cultures?

Is it that Scottish Gov have gone full gender-woo and we're able to see it happening on a smaller scale?
Is it the setup of our medical system that has put hurdles in the way of pharmaceutical orgs pushing medical transition?
Is it a culture of critical thinking, a history of good educational outcomes for girls?
A high number of people who don't follow mainstream religion, or at least aren't really radically religious?
The attrition of traditional gender roles over the last 50 years (although gender woo is reversing this trend)?

I think it's an interesting discussion anyway? Obviously it's incredibly complex!

Our media. The press is supine in many other countries by comparison. Janice Turner’s column in The Times did a lot of heavy lifting.

Education levels and ability to do critical thinking without swallowing any old shite you are told? I mean why do the US have those TV preachers that spout about miracles....didn't work here for David icke everyone just thought he was a loon.

The only person I know who has swallowed it hook line and sinker in spite of being a seemingly intelligent person is American, everyone else I know is just polite, but doesn't actually believe TWAW.

You might draw a useful distinction because the court cases, media and support has been the product largely of English skeptics. There is a good adversial culture built into courts and the press here, and I think that extends to Mumsnet.

Scottish court system absolutely not, Scottish press supine largely because of nationalism and the grip of the SNP. Hopefully changing a little.

And of course, Mumsnet, which permits a debate and an adversarial discussion.

I've met so many trans people - 2 prior to 2010, then since that time 10 more. To me that's quite a lot. If I'd met 12 pub landlords, I would notice. Particularly if 16 year old girls were suddenly becoming pub landlords in groups, despite all being teetotal as well. It's quite a change.

Yes, despite living in rural, sparsely-populated, farming Devon, a local factory recently summarily dismissed a worker for apparently transphobing a transwoman in the office by asking - accidentally, innocently - what they’d liked doing when they “were a boy”.

IT’S EVERYWHERE.

arrons "The chances of most people knowing or meeting anyone trans are tiny" ?!? Give me strength!

the tiny amount and hardly anyone has ever met one doesn't hold true anymore, not that it ever did. I remember transwomen out and about when I was 18 so many decades ago.

Now I don't even have kids and have nothing to do with schools and hardly leave the house.... And yet.... my neighbour is a transwoman. one of the cashiers at my local supermarket is a transman. There's a transwoman works at the bigger supermarket round the corner. On the rare occasions I've been in town during the day I've seen different transwomen from the ones I've already mentioned. I'm sure if I went out more I'd see plenty of others. And I don't live anywhere special.

@Aaron95 oh hang on - you think that "who is defined as a man or woman" only affects a subset of people who are trans? Why?

The explanations offered here cover most of the reasons, I think, but a major one surely is that the proposed self-identification was openly discussed in the media on TERF Island, while in other countries the changes seem to have happened rather hidden from public limelight so that most people were not even aware of them, or were told that nothing would affect anyone else but only benefit a very tiny and marginalised minority. (the nothing-to-see-here-move-on strategy).

Enjoying this v much. Thank you.

Generational memories: As one of the older members if this forum, I recall the phrase 'creeping American cultural imperialism' from the 70s, at about the time I was reading Small is Beautiful and The Female Eunuch and Vodka Cola. A lot of the drive behind genderism is associated with financial profit in the US, from big pharmaceutical to Toys R Us.

@Hopelesslydevotedtoshrews 'Things just weren't quite so obviously codified pink for girls and blue for boys for earlier generations.'

Toys R US came to the UK in 1985; my daughter was born about that time, and I was shocked to see their aisles labelled 'Boys' and 'Girls'. We weren't used to that.

I never voted for Thatcher, and disliked much of her politics. But when BA dressed planes in a livery she thought undignified for our national airline, she got it changed. I cannot imagine how she would have reacted to current events!

MN HQ: Why?

Was it a crowdfund or an archive link?

Was it because I mentioned "The Female Eunuch', a feminist text written by Germaine Greer, published in 1970 and an international bestseller?

@Ereshkigalangcleg No. I see MN HQ decided to let me share my elderly ramblings with you.

How odd! Glad your post came through.

FreddysSquishyBollock · Today 14:43

Naw, because it’s blatant cheating, innit?

Yes, I can see that.

On the "You're unlikely to ever see one," front, my little seaside town has at least six I can think of. All middle aged and mostly dressing in some sort of Look at me, look at me! style.

Two of them stand around glaring, apparently hoping to catch someone's eye, or hear a comment they can have a go at. It's obvious, with aggressive body language. They have (independently) started to stand outside at least two cafes and glare in.

I'm a regular in one and the owner told me that she'd gone out once and asked nicely for them to go away and got an aggressive diatribe in reply. And continued glaring.

As well as the fair play thing, I think we’re actually quite harsh as a nation.

We tend to pick things apart. We’ll shoot things down. We’re pessimistic.

A generation of strong women (and men to be fair) shot down my stupid comments growing up. Who told you that? Where’s your data? Why didn’t you check xyz?

Banter, taking the piss, football chants, public schools - the Uk is not for the faint hearted.

I think you're right about the harsh thing, which is why I find it so utterly bizarre that GI has taken such a hold here in Scotland, particularly as the Scots traditionally had a reputation of being quite no nonsense and holding no truck with bullshit.

That said, that might explain why the backlash has been so epic here.

The explanations offered here cover most of the reasons, I think, but a major one surely is that the proposed self-identification was openly discussed in the media on TERF Island, while in other countries the changes seem to have happened rather hidden from public limelight so that most people were not even aware of them, or were told that nothing would affect anyone else but only benefit a very tiny and marginalised minority. (the nothing-to-see-here-move-on strategy).

I think this is a major one - a few countries did it very quietly (by design - the tactics of doing it under the radar were freely admitted), but it was noticed here and we made a fuss. And mumsnet was key, so were some very vocal and stubborn women - Maya, JK etc.

Because we do have a very live and let live attitude, as long as you keep it to yourself. By trying to tell me what to do and think, that line has been overstepped and the 'now hang on just a minute' comes out.

I remember enjoying going to London as a kid for instance because you could see people dressed in every way possible.

A lot of the drive behind genderism is associated with financial profit in the US, from big pharmaceutical to Toys R Us.

Such a superb point.

I'm of the same generation as your DC, so was a child at the time the gendered toys were creeping in. I don't have that adult frame of reference for the change happening. But even then I've noticed how much more pink and blue things are now than they were in the 80s and 90s. And how the stuff that isn't in that vein is often more expensive. It's an excellent marketing ploy.

"This is a genuine question @Aaron95 and I am interested as to what you think: do you genuinely believe that "who is defined as a man or woman" is not going to be of interest for most people? Once it's clear it has nothing to do with being male or female?"

It's not a matter of belief. I doubt many people care because it does't affect them

Maybe we're terf island because we can see that the definition of women affects the whole population.

It affects everyone if toilets are made mixed-sex, if medical advice uses unclear language, if our children are taught they can choose whether they want to grow up to be a man or a woman.

The trans activists really are experts in doublethink, the numbers are so tiny most people will never be affected so therefore we all need to make sweeping changes throughout all institutions.

Agree with the point Britain has been a secular country for a long time. So when TRAs go on about gendered souls and pink / blue brains most people just tune out.

But also, British feminism has deep roots in the trades unions. More focused on practical matters like maternity leave and equal pay. There is no ' Left' in the US and Canada as Europeans understand that term.

The same query applies to Ireland I think. Of course we are both in headlong flight from organised religion and keen to look modern , progressive and liberal - as we imagine! Anything the churches have reservations about must be good.

And we get to feel superior to the stick in the mud English , perhaps. Change is afoot in both countries though , thank the non binary deity . Or natural selection acting upon random mutations in the web , if you prefer.

Are the Terfs the same women who spearheaded Let Toys be Toys 10 years ago?