AIBU to ask why no one is shouting TMAM or wearing t shirts saying Adult Human Male?

[supercalie]

Is anyone pushing the TWAW even questioning why nobody's arguing about whether TMAM or why men are wearing "Adult Human Male" tops or being threatened and physically assaulted by trans men when they got to talks about protecting men's rights?

Nobody seems to notice or care that men aren't bothered in general by trans men because they are in essentially zero danger from them.

Why isn't this lack of TMAM ideology not talked about more?

Is that a good thing ? What even is a MRA ? What rights are there out there that men don't already have?

It was tongue in cheek, @sawdustformypony

Oh, Ok.

I suppose you could ask that question about any X rights groups, what rights don’t X already have. The answer would probably be they have the same rights as everyone else because rights are given to individuals.

MRA tends to focus on the way that men are treated and the unequal outcomes in things like divorce and child custody disputes, they believe these things are often biased against them in favour of women.

I almost agree, but then I remember the TM’s parents, who may well be victims of the transition. It can be devastating to see your child on puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, or having body parts cut off or mutilated.

@Hansella567 Would certainly agree that those two examples have nothing to do with rights. (although I would say about divorce settlements in E&W that Courts are often just so busy that Judges don't have the time to really consider getting into the nitty-gritty of fairness arguments, merely say let's tot everything up and try to split 50/50 - but it's not an anti-man thing).

Do feminists care about men’s rights? Or are they only interested in advancing the well being of women as a class? I haven’t heard feminists talk about male suicide figures or the lack of men going to universities.

If feminists are only interested in helping women that is fine but they can’t then expect men to care about issues that disproportionately affect women if they don’t care about men’s issues.

Trans men are no threat to men so most men don’t have any issues with them at all and are happy to just let everyone else live as they want to. Trans men aren’t going to attack men in disproportionate numbers or disadvantage men in anyway or start taking all the gold medals in male sports (even if they do win a few medals) so most men don’t care and will live and let live.

So the political battle seems to be feminists (not men) arguing with TRAs. I suspect you don’t hear TMAM being shouted from the roof tops because men have not organised a campaign saying that they are not. You don’t tend to get campaigns arguing things if nobody hardly bothers to openly dispute those things in the first place.

Why would feminists who are fully focused on liberating all female people collectively be also helping male people collectively?

The point is that female people have been marginalised for millennia through negative sexist discrimination and therefore our services and sex based rights have suffered. So.... despite female people for centuries helping advance male people in general society, you are telling us that because we are not discussing male mental health care and male people's access to university you feel it is ok that male people ignore the needs and safety of women and girls?

Do I have that right? Is that what you are saying?

@Helleofabore
you are telling us that because we are not discussing male mental health care and male people's access to university you feel it is ok that male people ignore the needs and safety of women and girls?
that's not what I took from @Hansella567 's post
I didn't get any feeling Hansella was saying it's ok, more that she was saying this is how it is. She wasn't endorsing it, she was observing it.

I am not convinced lechiffre. I think I would like to have Hansella clarify their post and I hope that they can.

Everyone knows what sex everyone is, especially when they want to be sexist.

You’re not so far off. It’s more of and observation and reality.

But don’t live in the past, females do pretty well in the western world in the 2020’s. In the past this wasn’t the case and in some countries that is still isn’t the case but here and now things are pretty fair for both sexes most of the time and males suffer too.

Could somethings in the west be better and fairer for women? Sure. And by all means women should fight for these changes. But there are massive problems for males too and feminists don’t seem to give a shit, so don’t expect men to give a shit about something that doesn’t affect them.

I’m mostly observing it yes. Many politically active men feel they have their own issues to deal with, I mentioned two of the high suicide rates and education. You expect them to drop that and focus on this issue when you wouldn’t do the same for them? Why?

Why? Because they potentially have children, both male and female children, who are being negatively impacted by this for one? Are you saying that men don’t care about their children and it is feminist’s job to work for a better life for children? Is that what you mean?

Also, there seems to be an issue with male people feeling unsafe in male toilets for another.

And that there is a significant issue that some male people with those mental health issues you discuss, feel that the solution is transition and in doing so to demand access to female single sex spaces but are still male.

I am very happy to continue to list reasons why male people shouldn’t abandon other male people because those call themselves women. But maybe the symmetry of feminism where we have certainly not abandoned working for the needs of all females and children, including those who declare that they are men, had not registered in your mind.

You are listing reasons for caring (my fault for wording my question badly). Caring is not the same as prioritising though which I think is what you expect or want more men to do?

There are loads of problems one could concern themselves with. Men could be concerned about male suicide or male educational achievements or 100 other bad things that disproportionately affect men. Do you prioritise any of these problems that disproportionately affect men in your activism? If not I don’t see how you can demand that men prioritise and get upset about an issue that disproportionately affects women like this issue does.

So that is a no that men shouldn’t prioritise making sure their children are properly safeguarded and receiving appropriate medical care? That should be left to feminists to look after?

And prioritising male people’s safety in male toilets? Prioritising that make mental health issues that result in transition? Are you saying also that these are things that feminists should be prioritising ? Really? You are saying that on one hand you are concerned with male mental health, then dismissing the male people who fall under that category?

I am really not quite understanding your points. I have listed issues that are directly impacting male people and you seem to be implying that feminists should be prioritising those issues. Or is it that you have categorised all issues relating to trans people as only impacting female people so are feminist issues? While ignoring the direct impact on male people and children? Or are children’s issues also only for feminists to resolve?

And I take it handsella that you are male? And are giving a male perspective on this?

If you are female, what are you basing your statements on?

No one cares about TM, because they are female

Or maybe, because TMAM, then no one cares as they then ought to be able to look after themselves and too bad if they can't. Maybe that's it?

I think the major point is that when you are concerned about men coming into women's spaces, taking women's jobs, invading women's sports, it is very difficult to spare the time to worry that men may be uncomfortable that a woman is in one of their spaces?

My view is this. Everyone needs to grow the fuck up and behave in toilets. That means don't piss on the seats, remember to flush, wash your hands, don't throw rubbish on the floor. Use the facilities that correspond with your birth sex, and don't make people who don't conform to that sex's stereotypes of how they dress into something that ends in a fight. Men's toilets should be safe for all men. (biological ones) and Women's toilets should be safe for all women (biological ones)

There is a tiny difference though, and that concerns passing. Lots of TW think they pass as women. They reinforce each other in this (as do the handmaidens) and so when a 6' chap in a dress and lippy is told by a woman with courage to get out of the ladies, they are shocked - because they think they pass (I am being charitable here. There are other types of men that use women's facilities for other reasons). There are some trans men i guess who may, IRL, actually pass as a bloke, or an older teenage boy. Buck Angel i guess and some of the others that we see in ads and so on, muscles, tattoos, etc. Often the pictures are posed in a way that we don't see the hip to waist ratio, the shoulders, hands and feet, so it is often difficult to tell. My guess is that a) they don't want to use the men's for nefarious purposes (maybe they do?) and b) they don't make men uncomfortable.

so while i am happy for them to use the ladies, i can well understand that some other women may not because of how they look (to that i say: sorry, it's difficult but i believe that is correct), and i can understand that using the men's may be a better option. I'm not really sure, it isn't discussed much from the trans man or man's pov.

Trans men aren't taking opportunities away from men in terms of sports, jobs advertised for men (maybe rape crisis centres for men need to check on this?) etc. Basically they are not loud and shouty and in your face and so determined to have all the attention on them all the time. Elliott Paige doesn't seem to be experiencing any sort of euphoria in public, i hope that in private it is different.

I liked the "running away from / running towards" analogy upthread. I need to ponder on that.

Do you prioritise any of these problems that disproportionately affect men in your activism? If not I don’t see how you can demand that men prioritise and get
upset about an issue that disproportionately affects women like this issue does.

Women don't want men to 'prioritise' or 'get upset' about issues that disproportionately affect women. We just want men not to create, add to or minimise those issues, and quite often all they have to do is butt out and respect our spaces - no need for any fancy 'prioritizing' or worse still 'getting upset'.

That should leave men free to work on themselves, their mental health, their attitudes to education, their suicide rates, their responses to men questioning their gender. These are all important issues that I wish men well with, a world with balanced, thoughtful, confident boys and men who can be supportive to each other would be a big improvement.