AIBU to ask why no one is shouting TMAM or wearing t shirts saying Adult Human Male?

[supercalie]

Is anyone pushing the TWAW even questioning why nobody's arguing about whether TMAM or why men are wearing "Adult Human Male" tops or being threatened and physically assaulted by trans men when they got to talks about protecting men's rights?

Nobody seems to notice or care that men aren't bothered in general by trans men because they are in essentially zero danger from them.

Why isn't this lack of TMAM ideology not talked about more?

Saying men can become women is the most made up thing you can say.

Morning, everyone. We've moved this thread over to Feminism: Sex and Gender as we felt it sat better here and wasn't really an AIBU.

No denial of facts and biology here. Trans people are a (biological) fact.

I’m simply pointing out that trans people exist and pretending they don’t is both a) a denial of reality (evidence and facts) and b) transphobic.

This is interesting and I think substantially true.

I understand that most TW are either lesbians uncomfortable with their sexuality, or young girls who hate their bodies (whatever happened to anorexia? It was a big issue when I was a teenager, apparently uncommon now). I think transitioning could reasonably be seen as a way of running away from these issues.

I'm not sure it's quite as straightforward with TW. It's certainly true that the autogynephiliacs are running towards something - having the rest of us participating in their sexual fantasy. That is presumably why they have such a visceral hatred of women who don't want to participate in their game. They don't seem to be as angry with the men.

However, I think the highly feminine homosexual TW (who like the lesbian TMs) may be uncomfortable with their sexuality, are running away. The advantage they have over the autogynephiliacs, is that they are more likely to pass as women and be accepted in women only spaces.

@Tandora

What do you mean by a "trans person" in this context?

yet Again literally no one is denying that trans people exist. They are a mass occupying time & space, they exist

but what they are not is the opposite sex

trans men are women. The only thing TM are ever celebrated for is giving birth

there are no societal taboos for women about dressing in male clothing & having short hair the way there is when men present as women

TM are no threat at all to men which is why men generally don’t give af. The only men generally pissed off are gay men fed up with TM invading their spaces. However oddly no one seems to pile into gay men for saying hey don’t want to sleep with him women. It’s almost as if sex does in fact matter

I mean people who are trans.
https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people

This is what it boils down to.

What precisely makes a person 'trans' rather than simply gender non conforming?

trans men are women

Why do you think that you get to say this, when it is so deeply offensive and hurtful to trans men on the most personal of levels?
You are telling someone else who they are. And what you are telling them (about who they are) is a complete refutation/ denial of their own lived reality: their deep knowing and understanding of “self” at its most fundamental core. (It’s also a denial of how you would most likely recognise and relate to a trans man that you met in the real world). It strips trans people of their dignity, their humanity. It’s cruel and degrading and it comes from black and white thinking, a misunderstanding of people who are different to you.

You talk about biological realities and facts. The biological facts and realities are that trans men have certain types of bodies. Nobody is denying the physical reality of trans people’s bodies, but these body parts need not have the meaning and significance that you are attributing to them because of your cultural expectations and prejudices.

I get that these ideas are complex and they require a certain degree of critical reflection, but they are important and true.

@Tandora

It's important to understand exactly what you mean, though.

For example, there is no evidence for the existence of a gender identity, or that anyone has one. It is difficult to see how one can assert with evidence that a gender identity doesn't match with one's sex.

There is evidence that people experience discomfort with their body, I don't think anyone here would disagree, but the nature of that discomfort is widely disputed even within the field of gender medicine.

When we say that "trans people exist", sure there are people who believe in the tenets of gender ideology and believe themselves to fall within a category within that framework. But we disagree with the claims they make.

No denial of facts and biology here. Trans people are a (biological) fact.

How would an anatomist be able to conclusively observe this, if looking at the skeletons of a group of deceased people? I know how they could state with biological certainty and proof whether each one had been male or female; but how would they identify which ones had been biologically factually trans?

I'm not denying the reality that there are people who identify as trans, but I'm interested to know how this translates into a 'biological fact'?

I work with trans people @Tandora its a rookie error to assume people here don’t know trans people.

I use their preferred pronouns not out of choice but because I’d be fired if I didn’t. I intensely dislike being forced to lie

I just took a quick look at that NCTE link, and found this:

Note: NCTE uses both the adjectives “male” and “female” and the nouns “man” and “woman” to refer to a person’s gender identity.

This type of deliberate confusing language is at best unhelpful and at worse wilfully disingenuous.

Male and female should be reserved for describing biological sex. That whole link aims to obfuscate biological sex - the section on sexual orientation is a whole mess of gender feels.

Trans people “exist”, of course they do, Mumsnet’s FWR board would be like a ghost town if trans people didn’t exist.

However, they don’t exist as members of the opposite biological sex to them. I don’t doubt some of them want to be women when they’re actually men and some of them want to be men when they’re actually women, but wanting/wishing something doesn’t make it true, or I’d be a Euromillions lottery winner.

Gelding a colt doesn’t make him a mare. Neutering your dog doesn’t make him a bitch. No mammal can change sex, which is binary and immutable, and thanks to “brave and stunning” women like Maya Forstater, we are legally entitled to think that and say that, it is worthy of respect in a democratic society.

For example, there is no evidence for the existence of a gender identity, or that anyone has one. It is difficult to see how one can assert with evidence that a gender identity doesn't match with one's sex

This is a completely mad statement. What are you? A man or a woman?

There is evidence that people experience discomfort with their body, I don't think anyone here would disagree, but the nature of that discomfort is widely disputed even within the field of gender medicine

Being trans is not the same thing as experiencing gender dysphoria. A person can be trans without being dysphoric. People can experience dysphoria without necessarily being trans.

When we say that "trans people exist", sure there are people who believe in the tenets of gender ideology and believe themselves to fall within a category within that framework. But we disagree with the claims they make

Yes. You are saying that being trans is an “ideology” rather than a legitimate and real part of who someone is. This is so offensive and wrong and transphobic. It’s no more ok that telling a gay person, that they are not really gay, that they are just experiencing “same sex attraction” - as a life style choice, or possibly a mental illness. That is how we used to understand homosexuality, medically and culturally. It’s how some people in the Catholic Church understand homosexuality today. It’s not ok and it is homophobic. Being gay is not an “ideology” or “belief” about oneself, it is not a mental illness, it is not something that can be “cured”, it is rarely a choice; it’s a fundamental part of who someone is. Absolutely the same is true of being trans .

Why do you think that you get to say this, when it is so deeply offensive and hurtful to trans men on the most personal of levels?

Because it is FACT. Why do you get to insist we lie? To spare someone's feelings because they live in a pseudo reality world? Why do you pop up on these threads and accuse people of being offensive and all sorts but never answer legitimate questions put to you before you flounce off?

this 👆🏻

and I get to say it the same way that TM are allowed to describe themselves as men. They can do that but they should not be able to compel me to agree with them because they’re not men, they’re women

“Work with them” in what capacity? This is concerning given your attitudes.

Working with someone is not the same as knowing them. If you had a trans child for example you would likely feel very differently.

It’s not a fact though, it’s your choice of how to use words based on your own cultural expectations, experiences and prejudices.

It's biological fact.

We’re going to need a bigger bingo card!!

This type of deliberate confusing language is at best unhelpful and at worse wilfully disingenuous.

It's a bit like deciding that you're going to start referring to every single food item as 'yoghurt' - then wonder why you're so confused when you go and do a big weekly shop and your big long shopping list doesn't give you any more clues as to what you need to buy to feed your family other than 55 pots of yoghurt.

Being a trans man relies on one being a WOMAN. Its the sole part of their existence! It's laughable that you, as a fully functioning adult (though I do wonder), doesn't seem to understand this.