Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya on BBC1 now

447 replies

Davros · 07/11/2023 08:51

I had to turn off

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
RebelliousCow · 08/11/2023 10:26

Ladiesssss · 08/11/2023 09:22

@Datun as the sister of a trans woman, yep born a boy and now my sister, how did that happen, I am the most non-transphobic person you're likely to meet. She is biologically male, but the most beautiful, thoughtful, caring woman I know. I am very aware CS is not trans.

Please don't try and insult me with unsupported nonsense to support your argument.

Had to jump on and say that. Sorry, it's annoying saying I'm not here and keep popping back up, I need to stop looking.

Your sibling is still male, not female. I'm sure he is lovely and caring but that has got nothing to do with the issue.

A woman is, by definition, an adult human female - the world over. This is common reality that is widely understood everywhere, and which has a basis in biological science. 'Being a woman' is not a set of behaviours or performances, nor is it dependent on particular personality traits. It is simply a material, biological reality which also has very deep rooted psycho-social ramifications.

Fizbosshoes · 08/11/2023 10:52

FreddysSquishyBollock · 08/11/2023 09:08

TBF Datun I can kinda see where Semenya may be coming from, if you grow up in a difficult situation it is going to be hard to give up the money and fame that comes from international sporting success.

Even if it’s the morally right thing to do, I can see that it would be emotionally (and practically) challenging to say, ‘Ok, yeah, you got me, this is not my category’, especially if other athletes with the same medical condition are also competing in the opposite sex category and getting away with it.

Part of the blame must surely lie with sporting bodies and coaches who endorsed or encouraged Caster to be in the category to begin with.

I'm finding it hard to swallow the argument that it was a total surprise they had no uterus/other female organs after they had won a major competition age 18.
It would never occurred to them as a teenager to think why they had no periods . ..that never came up with their coach how their training affected their menstrual cycle? They never had a body fat/muscle analysis or similar where anomalies might have been noted?

heathspeedwell · 08/11/2023 10:53

I'm finding it hard to swallow that when your voice breaks at puberty, you don't realise you're a boy.

Datun · 08/11/2023 11:00

I absolutely think that Semenya knew they were a boy. Isn't that particular DSD quite common in that part of the world? Isn't it called Penis at Twelve?

And didn't scouts go out there specifically to find men with that exact DSD?

I think Semenya knew, absolutely, but did it anyway. Again, not something I'm at all surprised at, as I believe many people would do the same.

it doesn't make me any the less pissed off.

FreddysSquishyBollock · 08/11/2023 11:07

I absolutely believe that scouts go looking for DSD athletes.

Consider the lengths that sporting feds have to go to to catch doping cheats and that Paralympic athletes have been encouraged to have slightly more limb amputated to qualify for a different category and there is no way that some coach somewhere hasn’t gone ‘Aha! What about those boys who are erroneously declared girls at birth? I bet they could win in a female category!’

Helleofabore · 08/11/2023 11:09

FreddysSquishyBollock · 08/11/2023 11:07

I absolutely believe that scouts go looking for DSD athletes.

Consider the lengths that sporting feds have to go to to catch doping cheats and that Paralympic athletes have been encouraged to have slightly more limb amputated to qualify for a different category and there is no way that some coach somewhere hasn’t gone ‘Aha! What about those boys who are erroneously declared girls at birth? I bet they could win in a female category!’

It is believed that Ekkart Albeit was one of those scouts. He has a history of testosterone doping as a coach.

FreddysSquishyBollock · 08/11/2023 11:17

That makes sense Helle.

Some teenager from nowheresville isn’t going to be the brains of the operation.

SheikhDjibouti · 08/11/2023 11:27

I think Semenya knew, absolutely, but did it anyway.

Semenya told the BBC Breakfast interviewer (who I think looked quite uncomfortable both introducing the piece and in the interview itself) that he knew he was different at age 5.

FreddysSquishyBollock · 08/11/2023 11:38

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that difference (being born a male with 5 ARD) it just means that you don’t belong in the female sports category.

The misogyny and entitlement of Semenya (compared to other DSD athletes) is what really sticks in one’s craw!

RavingStone · 08/11/2023 11:38

I think what the coaches presumably did to Caster and his family seems a bit like grooming.

For Caster to admit the truth would be to essentially say that so much of his life is a lie. That his success is not deserved. That would take huge bravery and not everyone is brave.

It's like the parents who transition their young kids and go on to become blinkered activists. Or indeed people who fall for online dating scams and continue to send money even after they begin to guess what has happened. Not everybody has the inner strength to admit their mistakes and face the truth.

heathspeedwell · 08/11/2023 12:08

There was a Telegraph article that someone shared on here a few years ago that had pretty compelling evidence that some of the exact same coaches who had previously doped girls with testosterone went on to find boys with DSDs to coach.

There's a huge amount of money to be made in Olympic sports, of course there will be unscrupulous people who are ready to exploit every loophole.

Sadly there also will be foolish people who cheer them on, or choose to look the other way.

CatsWillRuleTheWorld · 08/11/2023 12:22

I don't think Semenya's case is relevant to trans/gender identity, although they are using that to get goodwill and deter questioning. The CS situation is an established type of sports scam (google Dora Ratjen.) Signing up a man or a male intersex person as a female athlete was more common in the "olden days", when doping was less sophisticated and before sex testing became a rule.

Semenya is a very old-fashioned sports cheat, it's almost quaint. It's like the fax machine or the telegraph of sports cheating, where modern doping would be an iPhone. It's not a coincidence that Semenya competed against other athletes like them, they are all doing it on purpose, together with coaches who are likely to be specifically scouting people with this condition.

Semenya is in a difficult position now because their only options are to openly admit that it was a scam or to keep up the charade that they are "a woman" at least part-time, and it's clear which one they're going with so far. I also think, like a previous poster, that there is an amount of grooming involved from their entourage.

viques · 08/11/2023 12:26

Ladiesssss · 08/11/2023 08:26

Why do I have to repeatedly defend myself? Whether or not she is biologically male or female is quite irrelevant. She is legally female, she wants to be female, she identifies as female. Therefore to call her male is abusive.

I hate the trans abuse on this site and this is becoming very similar. I am not trans before I am accused of it.

This is a hypothetical question.

Bearing in mind the photos that are emerging of CS as a young person dressed as a boy , showing for example a very masculine body with no breast development, and taking into consideration other physical factors such as high testosterone, no uterus, the internal testes, do you think that if Caster Semanya had not been offered the opportunity to represent South Africa as a runner, ( with the prospect of making a comfortable living from Olympic success, sponsorship ,interviews, coaching, book deals etc) but had instead continued to live in obscurity following whatever career was available to a child from a modest background, that Caster would have chosen to live the rest of their life as a woman?

(Because I think all the pointers are that the deciding factor has always been about seizing the opportunities that running as a woman have offered, and that Caster has chosen to live the lie and enjoy the fame and fortune this has brought.)

Datun · 08/11/2023 12:35

and that Paralympic athletes have been encouraged to have slightly more limb amputated to qualify for a different category

Dear God. What a world.

FreddysSquishyBollock · 08/11/2023 12:45

Paralympics: The Unfair Games.

https://www.longtailfilms.co.uk/paralympic.html

(video available via the above link, broadcast Summer 2021 on the BBC)

Paralympics: The Unfair Games

How cheating has tainted the Paralympic dream for athletes around the world.

https://www.longtailfilms.co.uk/paralympic.html

Datun · 08/11/2023 13:00

I know every day's a school day, Freddy but sometimes i'm not sure I want the education!

FreddysSquishyBollock · 08/11/2023 13:56

Fair enough!

The manipulation of Para categories that goes on must be well known to those at the top of sports federations though, which is why I can’t believe for a single minute that DSD athletes aren’t sought out and deployed as a form of ‘cheating’ (or to be slightly kinder by ‘playing to rule’, when the competition rules leave these loopholes open).

The female swimmer (double leg amputee)!who is told one of her stumps was 1.5mm (!) too long for the category she was a medal prospect in is a proper eye opener.

Dame Tanni is interviewed and it strikes me that it’s incredibly obvious why she has been so fantastically terfy - her whole life and career has been firmly grounded in material reality!

DameMaud · 08/11/2023 14:05

viques · 08/11/2023 12:26

This is a hypothetical question.

Bearing in mind the photos that are emerging of CS as a young person dressed as a boy , showing for example a very masculine body with no breast development, and taking into consideration other physical factors such as high testosterone, no uterus, the internal testes, do you think that if Caster Semanya had not been offered the opportunity to represent South Africa as a runner, ( with the prospect of making a comfortable living from Olympic success, sponsorship ,interviews, coaching, book deals etc) but had instead continued to live in obscurity following whatever career was available to a child from a modest background, that Caster would have chosen to live the rest of their life as a woman?

(Because I think all the pointers are that the deciding factor has always been about seizing the opportunities that running as a woman have offered, and that Caster has chosen to live the lie and enjoy the fame and fortune this has brought.)

This is such a good question!

CrystalSea · 08/11/2023 14:41

I found an article from the time the controversy about Semenya first broke when he was 18. It’s only available to read in the US so I’ve included an archive link: <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.li/2023.11.08-143549/www.nydailynews.com/2009/08/25/former-east-german-track-coach-ekkart-arbeit-caught-up-in-caster-semenya-gender-controversy/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.li/2023.11.08-143549/www.nydailynews.com/2009/08/25/former-east-german-track-coach-ekkart-arbeit-caught-up-in-caster-semenya-gender-controversy/

Ekkart Arbeit was Semenya’s coach.

Helleofabore · 08/11/2023 14:53

CrystalSea · 08/11/2023 14:41

I found an article from the time the controversy about Semenya first broke when he was 18. It’s only available to read in the US so I’ve included an archive link: <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.li/2023.11.08-143549/www.nydailynews.com/2009/08/25/former-east-german-track-coach-ekkart-arbeit-caught-up-in-caster-semenya-gender-controversy/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.li/2023.11.08-143549/www.nydailynews.com/2009/08/25/former-east-german-track-coach-ekkart-arbeit-caught-up-in-caster-semenya-gender-controversy/

Ekkart Arbeit was Semenya’s coach.

I was just coming to post that. Because it is in my link bank that I often post on the sports threads.

Here is some more information about his background.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-04-22/olympic-champion-hires-former-east-german-drug/1841668

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/further-checks-on-coach-ordered-1.114105

Olympic champion hires former East German drug guru: report

Olympic heptathlon champion Denise Lewis's new coach Frank Dick has recruited the man credited with masterminding the biggest state-sponsored doping program in history to get his athlete into contention for this year's world championships.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-04-22/olympic-champion-hires-former-east-german-drug/1841668

DewinDwl · 08/11/2023 16:18

The period question is the one that sways it for me.

As a girl if you get to 18 with no signs of periods you / your parents are going to start asking questions and seeking medical advice whatever your background, education or means. This is not the same as erratic periods due to low bmi or intense training. No mother would shrug this off. No way. I don't buy it.

MissPollysFitDolly · 08/11/2023 16:24

18? 16 even. There's no way Caster and those around him didn't know his sex much earlier on.