Caster Semenya on BBC1 now

[Davros]

I had to turn off

On the bus but have to correct @FreddysSquishyBollock if I had reported you for 'making comparisons to other beliefs that are clearly and factually untrue!' MNHQ would not have deleted. You were reported for being offensive and personally attacking me, that's why the posts were deleted. Let's not make up untruths anymore Freddy!

I really do have to go now! Thanks for the discussion.

La! La! La! Not listening! I can’t acknowledge Semenya is male if I don’t listen to you!

There is ample proof biologically CS is as male as any other male human being on this planet. And there is a very good reason why people here are calling CS male, it is to make very clear this person has no reason to be demanding to be allowed to compete in the female category.

Not calling CS male would only serve to obfuscate the reason people are objecting to what CS is demanding. Just read the following words and gauge your own internal reaction to them:

CS is not allowed to compete in the womens division even though CS is female.

CS is not allowed to compete in the womens division even though CS is male.

If your first reaction to the second sentence is not 'yeah duh' then maybe have a think why that is.
Using trickery of words is the first action transactivists also take and CS is playing right into their hands. If the words women and female can also refer to adult human males, then arguing males have no business in womens sports becomes impossible. Hence the reason people call CS male, he is and what he is demanding is unreasonable and unfair.

What is it about this bloody concept of respect?

Respect is earned. You can't force people to respect anyone.

The two issues are caster's eligibility to race with women, which is zero. (And ladiessss is obviously unable explain why it isn't.)

and the other issue is respecting caster's desire to be called a female.

I don't respect any man's desire to be called a female, because it's based on sexism. But I certainly don't respect them if they're doing it to cheat at sport.

Posters like ladiesssss think you should still respect them, even if they're cheating!

There seems to be this idea that you can't just condemn someone out of hand. That there must still be some residue of respect, about something, that you must adhere to.

Which is odd, anyway. But even odder because respect isn't something you can manufacture.

Such a peculiar phenomenon.

TBF Datun I can kinda see where Semenya may be coming from, if you grow up in a difficult situation it is going to be hard to give up the money and fame that comes from international sporting success.

Even if it’s the morally right thing to do, I can see that it would be emotionally (and practically) challenging to say, ‘Ok, yeah, you got me, this is not my category’, especially if other athletes with the same medical condition are also competing in the opposite sex category and getting away with it.

Ladiesssss - "(I know this isn’t a trans issue before I’m jumped on)"

Also Ladiesssss - "She is not male, she identifies as female, she is legally female."

Even Semenya says they're not trans, ladiesss. Are you trying to shoehorn Semenya into being trans? Because that would be transphobic.

I'm not saying it isn't hard. I'm the first person to understand that humans are self interested.

It doesn't mean it isn't cheating.

I think the people I get more annoyed with are those twits who pander to it, even in the teeth of overwhelming evidence. Especially when I believe they are pandering to it out of a deep-seated sense of sexism.

As I said earlier in the thread what I find galling is how he’s pushing his luck. Through sheer luck of the Chand case and tying up the IAAF/World Athletics legally, he managed to successfully carve a lucrative career out of being a male in women’s sport.

Now he’s saying “I did all that, and I still want more money for my book”. I’m assuming the publishers gave him a decent advance hoping for sales from all of his delusional fans, but I hope this promotional tour sinks him into the realm of cheats like Lance Armstrong and the Eastern European dopers.

Yes, it's the milking it. And also his clear distain for women.

@Datun as the sister of a trans woman, yep born a boy and now my sister, how did that happen, I am the most non-transphobic person you're likely to meet. She is biologically male, but the most beautiful, thoughtful, caring woman I know. I am very aware CS is not trans.

Please don't try and insult me with unsupported nonsense to support your argument.

Had to jump on and say that. Sorry, it's annoying saying I'm not here and keep popping back up, I need to stop looking.

Totally.

We could’ve perhaps forgiven the bits up to say, 2017, if Semenya wasn’t such an entitled, misogynistic, money grabber and was willing to play by the (not particularly good) rules set for DSD athletes at the time.

Your brother is not a woman.

You and your brother can say your brother is a woman if you want, that's got nothing to do with Caster Semenya.

Caster Semenya is male, and knows he's male, and has used a loophole to steal opportunities, medals and money from women. Why do you care about Semenya, who has done very well out of this, and not the women he stole opportunities from?

Ladiesss, it is always the same. The people demanding women give up their rights, spaces, services and sports always have a trans friend, sibling, cousin or somebody around them. These trans people are always the nicest people on the planet and why can't other people (read women) be nicer to them and let them have what they want.

No. Not ok to demand women take a back seat. Stop letting your experience with your sibling cloud your judgment. Not all trans people are nice. Trans people do not change their sex. Trans people's demands to not overrule other people's rights. Other people matter just as much and if we as society segregate sports on biological sex then somebody's feelings on what they think their sex should be but isn't, should not be taken into account.

Well due to a recent update, everything has fallen into place for me.

I'm sure it has for others too.

I am the most non-transphobic person you're likely to meet. She is biologically male, but the most beautiful, thoughtful, caring woman I know.

I'm getting a bit lost here. You said calling male people who identified as women "male" was "abusive"?

Is the "biologically" enough to negate that abusiveness? So you'd stop arguing if we said Semenya was "biologically male"?

Please don't try and insult me with unsupported nonsense to support your argument.

it's not my argument I'm showing you. It's your own argument. Your own words. Your own posts.

I'm not sure that logic comes into it.

ETA - that was in response to NecessaryScene.

Also Ladiesssss, Caster does not identify as a woman. Casting is not transgender. Caster has nothing in common with your sibling.

Apparently they don't agree that they are a biological male with 5 ARD either.

What do you think is caster's reason for saying they are female?

Great point necessary. I wonder if that is the solution! If ladiess does it, we should be able to too!

Brilliant. Maybe …. Hang on… haven’t we been told adding biological to the sex is indeed transphobic?? Does that make @Ladiesssss transphobic?

It’s amazing that @Ladiesssss supports Semenya despite having a trans sibling, given Semenya’s actual transphobia demonstrated by him saying “What. The. Fuck. Is. This.” when he met Joanna Harper for the first time.

That wasn't very kind of him.

actually I think Ladiesssss is doing us a big favour here highlighting the utter absurdity of allowing someone clearly male to use the legal fiction female
So true!

If Ladiesssss is posting in good faith, and does have a trans sibling, then that does explain a great deal about her illogical posts. I can imagine it is very difficult to reconcile facts with emotions in that case, and would take some time to process.