Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

Fetishism can be hard for women to grasp, I think. BDSM is the sort of acceptable shopfront for a very odd collection of paraphilias. Most of which almost exclusively occur in males. Men get off on humiliation, fear, dustbins - there is nothing out of bounds.

What is common to most paraphilias is non-consensual participation- that's the master key, so to speak.

And so again, it's all about power.

Submission in this context is absolutely not an abnegation of power. Just a manipulation of the dynamic.

Yep.

The whole situation in a nutshell. Once you are talking with someone who believes reality is what they choose and they have the right to enforce it you, there's limited point in expecting anyone else's needs or any other facts, to penetrate their fiction. Or expecting them to make sense on any other topic.

Which is why really this is going to need legal boundaries. And reasonability is a pipe dream in a desperate attempt to stall the nasty moment of having to say no and deal with the screaming.

I also question this 'fear' of men in men's spaces. Yes, it's fetishized. But there's also always, as with the never ending blokey 'lets have a pint' line pulled out eventually, the male knowledge that if you screw other men around and try pulling this bullshit on them, you're risking a fist in the face.

Acronym that Gets Policed

Excellent!

Who was the very annoying mouth breather during the debate?? They're driving me mad!

That's beautiful.

I think it was Fred. Or they stopped breathing when fred spoke. I tried to work it out.

I’m coming back to this comment on the debate from Friday afternoon, because I think it’s one of the most revealing points ever made on FWR.

The vast majority of people will see Freda Wallace’s

-male height
-male physique
-male body language
-male attitude
-male sexualisation “I love fucking, with my cock, in sex clubs yay!”
-male idea of womangender dress (blow-up sex doll look)

And conclude “man”.

AlphaTransWoman sees “attractive woman” because long hair, make up and skirt.

It is like taking someone to Niagara Falls and their insisting all they can see/hear is a calm garden pond. We are told it’s not a mental illness, but what else can you call a complete denial of reality? We are not debating on the same terms of reference.

Ugh and it wasn't "have a pint with you", it was "share a pint with you". Yuck. Talk about manipulative.

I agree with you. Silence isn’t consent.

Can that poster go into a male toilet and say ‘you’re a bloke’

If not why not?

surely delicate lady brains have a small glass of sweet sherry rather than a pint?

I'm ex-military, i drink pints, i love football, i do a lot of sport, i am not a withering flower. And confronted by a 6ft bloke in a dress demanding to use the ladies loo i'm in? Fawn is exactly the right answer. Because you never know how they will react to "no"

And fawning is taken as acceptance by these male posters. They lap up women and girls fawning instinct and have weaponised it against women and girls.

part of me would love to share a pint with you and talk about this stuff.

A pint Alpha? How terribly unlady like. It's a sweet sherry for us lady types and only in the snug, men are doing important men stuff in the main bar.

It has to be champers dahing.

Tallisker · Today 10:44

Acronym that Gets Policed

Drat! I thought I was the first to spot that!

Evidence suggest @AmaryllisNightAndDay that even if you said 'get out' alpha wouldn't, so the suggestion that alpha isn't the sort of person we should be worried about is unconvincing because men who won't respect women boundaries or listen to the word 'no' whilst feeling fully entitled to do whatever the hell they decide is best for them are PRECISELY the sort of men that hurt rape and kill us.

And now I'll edit out all the things I can't say.

I don't think that most posters here would be having a debate with Helen Joyce, it would be more of an affirmation thing.

Ooh yes, I know. Hm, I totally agree, yes, you're right... WTF!? Well, that's a new one, can you wait a sec, I want to make a note...

Credit to @RinklyRomaine for the Acronym that Gets Policed

FRUIT BASED DRINK FOR THE LADIES.

I feel I’ve got far more in common with the average bloke than I have with a TW. Me and the average bloke both like wearing trousers. Me and the average bloke both accept our sex-based reality.

Regardless of this, I don’t want to share female spaces with any male. Not just for my safety, dignity and privacy, but for the safety, dignity and privacy of every other woman who uses those facilities.

Alpha has decided that Alpha’s discomfort is more important than women’s discomfort. Alpha will always put their self first, so whatever Alpha wants becomes more important than women’s needs.

Alpha has been enabled by #BeKind, which is why they think they’re not being unreasonable. After all, they’re not physically threatening us and they haven’t sworn at us, which makes a change from the TRAs. We are not going to be grateful for that because however you wrap it up, with pink fluffy bows and unicorn sparkles, the outcome is the same - TW who use women’s spaces and services are also using women.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; women are not emotional support humans and we are not identity validation props. We are people in our own right and we have sex-based needs and sex-based rights that disintegrate the moment a male person muscles in on them.

Trampling over women to get what you want is not being remotely “submissive”.

I feel I’ve got far more in common with the average bloke than I have with a TW.

Me too.

None of the men I know would go into women’s single-sex spaces, it wouldn’t even enter their heads. They’d all be completely safe and no threat to women, but I still don’t want them in there, and they wouldn’t come in anyway.

Good men stay out so bad men stand out. Alpha cannot seem to understand this, even though it’s a short pithy trope that says it all.

A vase of gin for me.

Which is actually Alpha's manufactured discomfort.