Page 33 | Trans Ideology - a real life debate

Datun · 31/10/2023 08:53

Froodwithatowel

Cross posting re the script.

I wonder if they'll ever realise how tediously the same they all are.

thirdfiddle · 31/10/2023 09:05

It reminds me of the audience question in the debate thinking trans women are not women was some kind of taboo phrase that Helen Joyce wouldn't be prepared to utter outright.

Transwomen are men. I do not consent to them being in women's spaces. Some women do, but that doesn't override those of us who do not consent. And more women don't challenge because they see men who ignore women's boundaries as a threat. Regardless of whether they personally see themselves as submissive and scared because we can't read minds.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 31/10/2023 09:07

AlphaTransWoman · 31/10/2023 01:13

I would love to debate with Helen Joyce, but I suspect she's got better things to do.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

I'd pay good money to see that!

OldCrone · 31/10/2023 09:12

Boiledbeetle · 31/10/2023 08:44

@ArthurbellaScott It's always the same isn't it.

Them: I'm so calm and reasonable, I'm not one of those Malaga airport types. I'm totes a woman, can't you tell, look I've even acquired breasts, and I'm loving the feel of my skirts that go spinny, I'm too afraid to use the gents as I'm so womanly and feminine and submissive and despite being over six foot and built like a brick shit house will be in danger. So i will use the women's facilities.

Us: but what about the safety and dignity of us women who don't want man in our single sex spaces?

Them: I don't give a fuck.

Us: please don't use women's single sex spaces, by doing that women will be forced to self exclude

Them: NO!

Great summary.

But I can't quite get my head round how someone of Alpha's size seems to think that they are going to be in so much danger in the men's toilets, more so even than a 10-year-old boy, who is likely to be barely 5 feet tall, compared to Alpha's over 6 feet (and built like a brick shit house).

But maybe it's not physical danger that Alpha is scared of. Men are more likely than women to laugh at an enormous man in a dress who is in a confined space with them. So maybe what Alpha is scared of is being laughed at by the men. Alpha wants to be fawned over by terrified women instead.

Although maybe Alpha is finding that the men are not laughing any more and are just ignoring Alpha, and Alpha just wants a bit more attention, and Alpha can get this by going in the ladies' and scaring the women.

RinklyRomaine · 31/10/2023 09:20

There comes a point where the parallels between men who say they feel like women dressing as a sexualised parody of women barging into our spaces while practicing the Acronym that Gets Policed are too close to the men who enter our discussion spaces and say they feel like us while suggesting their parody of the worst stereotypes about us is what makes them feel like women. Just saying.

ChishiyaBat · 31/10/2023 09:23

@OldCrone I think you've hit the nail on the head with that, men give zero fucks about another man in a dress in their toilets so it's got to to be for attention right? I wonder if anything @AlphaTransWoman says is true, or if it's all just for show behind his keyboard, just frothing up the "silly little women" for fun.
Just in case you are doing what you say you are, just know I will never shut up, I will never stop fighting to keep you out of womens spaces! Women matter! Womens feelings matter! We want our spaces back! So STAY THE FUCK OUT!

FreddysSquishyBollock · 31/10/2023 09:27

I don’t think I will ever get tired of saying ‘NO!’ to men.

It’s a sort of self recharging energy. The more you say it, the more you enjoy saying it and the better you feel

’No!’

and my personal favourite:

‘Cock Off!’

Helleofabore · 31/10/2023 09:30

“I think that avoidance of danger is an understandable and natural female trait. Nobody calls a woman a "coward" for avoiding danger, after all. I think being fearful and submissiveness go hand in hand - don't you agree?”

Now that I have slept some more on this, I don’t even really recognise this ‘female’ trait.

I have numerous female friends in the military or ex-military. And fierce protective women who would absolutely go into protective mode for children or other female people.

But now I think of it, as I am typing didn’t this poster believe men were conscripted because of women’s fear? Rather than the economic reality that you need to repopulate and well…. Male people lack the ability to gestate a new population. Plus who would look after all the children of those female ‘conscripts’.

It is like this poster just has no fucking idea about history and reality.

But no. I think that all that talk of ‘fear’ is projection and is all about the manipulative element of this person’s posts.

ChishiyaBat · 31/10/2023 09:37

@FreddysSquishyBollock I will never get tired of it either. I love cock off, may I please borrow it?

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 31/10/2023 09:45

I would love to debate with Helen Joyce,

Ooooh, that's naive. I would be terrified to debate with Helen Joyce and I mostly agree with her.

Helen Joyce started from the data and the evidence, and not from her own beliefs. She is used to reading through conflicting evidence, judging its quality, and pulling out the best supported conclusions whether they support her preferences or not. It's what she did for a living at the Economist. She got interested in trans issues because it was a newsworthy story, a burgeoning scandal where the facts weren't being fully reported. She has the evidence (from all sides) at her fingertips and the logic and presence of mind to use them well in a debate.

When she told Peter Tatchell she'd read the papers he was talking about and they don't show what he thinks they do, I believe her. Not because I agree with her but because that's what she does. She is harsh but all her conclusions are based on the best evidence we have.

ArthurbellaScott · 31/10/2023 09:45

Froodwithatowel · 31/10/2023 08:48

Well that ended predictably.

To the women here who were hopeful of being able to have a reasonable discussion with a reasonable person, and a belief that if women just explained properly a solution could be found - I'm sorry. It's a kick in the teeth to realise you've been had.

This is why so many of the longer termers here are so very cynical; we've been in your position of hopeful engagement, often years ago, and it ends this way every time . Every single time.

As with the mid life crisis script so well known on the relationships board, there's a script here too. It's all about getting you to dance and feed attention or humiliation or whatever the current one particularly likes, no different to the midnight misogynist that used to hang out in these parts to poke women and watch the reactions in the early hours.

I mean 'charitably be excluded so that male people feeling vulnerable can be happy'...... it is beyond nasty to discover that your being a good person who is easy to manipulate has been weaponised against you and you've been used. But the slip always comes eventually, the mask falls and you see how much you swallowed of the low level, subtle stuff before it got obvious enough. This is what the whole situation is. 'just want to pee' is as manipulative as the rest of it, all designed to play on your sympathies. It's all about using you. All of it. It's all about someone getting their jollies with you, and your body, while talking the script at you to get you to enable them. Which makes the jollies so much jollier. So important to remember: a male in a woman's space has already demonstrated they are a boundary violator. A male with no respect for women or their consent.

Want to see women abused in real time? Here it is. And you can find the other threads where it's followed the same path, with the same script. It's a bitter, bitter experience. Which is why it's time for bloody hard boundaries, legally enforced. In the same way that you cannot be reasonable or find middle ground with someone who feels entitled to burgle your house, and will respect only law and hard consequences. Because they have no respect for you or anything else that conflicts with what they want at the time.

Edited

Yes, yes, yes.

ArthurbellaScott · 31/10/2023 09:46

I would be terrified to debate with Helen Joyce and I mostly agree with her.

😂

Brilliant. Fwiw I don't think she's harsh in the slightest. She's honest and compassionate.

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 31/10/2023 09:53

Ameanstreakamilewide · 31/10/2023 09:07

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

I'd pay good money to see that!

Show quote history

I'm sure that Alpha would walk away from any such debate thinking Alpha was the winner. Because they don't listen. FW thinks FW 'wiped the floor' with Helen. Everyone else can see it was a car crash but FW thinks they have 'trapped' GC women.

AlisonDonut · 31/10/2023 09:54

Oh Datun you are so interesting, not like all those other boring women.

No offence but weird how he can pick just out one ladybrain he would like to talk to, one who has spent years managing their speech and not get themselves banned for telling him and his like to [redacted] off.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/10/2023 09:56

I've met Helen Joyce and she is lovely. As is @Datun. Neither of them tolerate fools gladly though!

ArthurbellaScott · 31/10/2023 10:02

AlisonDonut · 31/10/2023 09:54

Oh Datun you are so interesting, not like all those other boring women.

No offence but weird how he can pick just out one ladybrain he would like to talk to, one who has spent years managing their speech and not get themselves banned for telling him and his like to [redacted] off.

All about power.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 31/10/2023 10:06

@Girlontherailreplacementbusservice

Like Grace Lavery did. I even asked him on Twitter: were you not mortified to have backed out of the debate, like that??

He said he was, but he gave me some dopey flannel answer, which had nothing to do with the question i'd put to him.

Plus ca change!

Tinysoxxx · 31/10/2023 10:10

Ameanstreakamilewide · 31/10/2023 09:07

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

I'd pay good money to see that!

Show quote history

To be fair I can imagine Helen didn’t want to ‘debate’ Freda because these others don’t really debate. There’s no nuance or structure. It always goes the same way:

If you go back to the OP, the first was summed up nicely:
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me

Trans Ideology the sequel - a real life debate on MN:
Women - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Alpha - Me, me, me, womens and disabled toilets are for me, me

In both, the actual questions like mine of, why should you overide more vulnerable groups, is ignored. They always bring it back to their feelings. That’s all they have.

The difference with Helen is that she is talking about this in public about more complex and difficult topics. Whereas this sequel is done anonymously and we are talking about basic toilets rights. But it is important to really get to the real nitty-gritty of the basics too to expose the motive.

Helen deserves a medal.

RethinkingLife · 31/10/2023 10:12

It is like this poster just has no fucking idea about history and reality.

If people feel entitled to construct their own reality and enforce it on others, it's straining at a gnat for them to feel comfortable creating their own version of history that is in line with their own beliefs and pass that off to others as fact.

DarkDayforMN · 31/10/2023 10:17

But no. I think that all that talk of ‘fear’ is projection.

Some men fetishise female fear. It’s not a good category of men to belong to.

Helleofabore · 31/10/2023 10:18

I think that this male poster would find it very difficult to talk to any of the posters posting here last night. And I am sure most of us are lovely and reasonable. And knowledgeable. I think many of us would provide facts and stats and studies which this poster would just counter with deflection and emotional pleas.

However, we would keep drilling down the conversation and cutting through the emotional manipulation, the deflection, the sparple and this poster would either walk away as they would not have the opportunity to pick and choose what to answer.

I suspect they believe that ‘having a pint’ would be some fluffy type of chat, but I doubt they would enjoy it. Because they wouldn’t be able to control what they selectively listen to.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 31/10/2023 10:19

I wouldn't describe myself as "terrified" by a befrocked bloke coming into the ladies' toilets. Just nervous. I don't suppose alpha can read "nervous". I guess that to alpha, if I didn't say "get out" then I made alpha welcome. But only if I'm a woman. I suppose Alpha reads men as threatening and women as safe. And if I don't say "you're a bloke" then I suppose alpha concludes I read alpha as a woman.

RethinkingLife · 31/10/2023 10:19

AlisonDonut · 31/10/2023 09:54

Oh Datun you are so interesting, not like all those other boring women.

No offence but weird how he can pick just out one ladybrain he would like to talk to, one who has spent years managing their speech and not get themselves banned for telling him and his like to [redacted] off.

The seduction of like minds overture.

Hayton made the same offer, iirc. The sharing of a pint and a discussion etc.

The script never changes.

ExpectantAsshole · 31/10/2023 10:32

sigh
Third verse same as the first…

FreddysSquishyBollock · 31/10/2023 10:32

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 31/10/2023 10:19

I wouldn't describe myself as "terrified" by a befrocked bloke coming into the ladies' toilets. Just nervous. I don't suppose alpha can read "nervous". I guess that to alpha, if I didn't say "get out" then I made alpha welcome. But only if I'm a woman. I suppose Alpha reads men as threatening and women as safe. And if I don't say "you're a bloke" then I suppose alpha concludes I read alpha as a woman.

If I see a male in the female toilets I will turn on heel and breezily shout ‘Oh, I thought this was the LADIES! My MISTAKE!’ and then depart, quick.

I vow to no longer let any male assume they ‘pass’ as female just because actual women are too polite or too embarrassed or too scared to tell the truth.