Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

Just thinking about how alpha absolutely will not enter the men's loos supposedly because alpha fears for alpha's personal safety.

Alpha does not care if women feel the same way.

She doesn't care because she knows she is stronger than any woman there.
this sentence has much more power when sex-based pronouns are used, but i don't want to be deleted.

I wish there was parity in strength between the sexes because then alpha could be chased out of the ladies.

“I would hope women would take a charitable approach to him using their toilets”

Just* *in case anyone missed the emotional manipulation in that particular post. Here it is again.

The arrogance in this manipulation is unmistakable once you see it. It is abusive towards women to write this.

That is the same approach being used is schools to guilt trip girls into letting boys into their toilets. My teacher friend says that the girls are being asked to let the boys bullied for being gay use their toilets “su they’re safe” - you know instead of doing something about the actual bullying

“I would hope women would take a charitable approach to him using their toilets”

Why can’t men do this?

If you can't respect a woman's NO and ignore a woman's NO, then I doubt there will be much the women on this board will be in agreement with you on.

her son is a teenaged child, not an under 8 year old.

Plus the context was school, where the people using the female toilets are not “women” but young girls, presumably many of them much younger than 17.

It’s very easy to picture the duper’s delight on pp’s face as he types these posts. I find it reduces the temptation to respond.

A pity Alphas submissiveness does not extend to bending to the needs of millions of women. Funny that.

So what have we got? Ignoring women's consent, violating their boundaries, inviting other men to do likewise but gaslighting everyone by pretending it's not the women getting bullied.

All ruthlessly executed fluffily. Whilst being respectful and submissive natch.

I'm reminded of dame Edna Everage enthusiastically eviscerating people 'in a kindly way'.

And he was funny.

I feel like I've seen this thread before. I salute your indefatigability

It was partly the ‘submissiveness’ as discussed by this poster that pointed out, very clearly, that there ultimately is no difference between them and the type of male trans person they scorn. The fetishist.

Let's remind ourselves of the late night ego trip of this poster last night:

"I think that avoidance of danger is an understandable and natural female trait. Nobody calls a woman a "coward" for avoiding danger, after all. I think being fearful and submissiveness go hand in hand - don't you agree?"

No, I don't. I think it sounds like a male fantasy. I've read similar things on Reddit.

Can anyone remember when women were routinely given the advice of “take a self defence class” to combat our safety worries? (Which was then shown to actually endanger women more).

Maybe take a self defence class, mate.

Empower yourself!

#girlpower✌️

It’s very easy to picture the duper’s delight on pp’s face as he types these posts. I find it reduces the temptation to respond.

This.

Barging into spaces which aren't intended for males is in no way a "submissive" act. As @Helleofabore says, this "submissiveness" is entirely performative.

The only reason women on this board are engaging is 1. to demonstrate the misogyny being employed and 2. so that at very least its understood that women say no, and men are still deliberately using their spaces, transgressing boundaries and ignoring women's rights to privacy, safety and dignity. The claim that women are all fine with men in their spaces is not true. Women say no.

We have all had these conversations many times before, and they always follow the same tediously predictable pattern.

I think rather than self defence classes women may do well to learn about personality disorders and paraphilias. Both are fairly common.

And this is the best thing I've heard in ages!

May we all give each other backbone.

I think it’s a good example of how weak the arguments are

But also how we are hamstrung by the law due to the GRA

Change the law and we won’t have to be letting men know it’s a no

Changing the law is a start. There is a whole maelstrom of messaging that's been pumped out into society for the past ten, twenty years that we are going to have to counter, too. Schools, media, the NHS, lobby groups have all been complicit and active in pushing the story that women are happy about losing their rights.

Partly the regressive stereotypes, partly the be kind bullshit, partly the idea that men pretending to be women should be indulged, fawned over, pitied and included with women.

@AlphaTransWoman imagine this, hypothetically you win, we all concede that you are so good at womaning that we let you into our spaces and because you are just a soft, simpering 'woman' all is fine (I mean surface fine because you don't see the women that have stayed at home to avoid you, or the fear on the face of the woman who stays in her cubicle until she hears you leave or think about the woman who is mortified that the door to her cubicle was wedged open by a pushchair.) So just the type of 'fine' that means no one was raped or beaten.
As you leave Isla Bryson walks in. Is it still 'fine'? If we let 'nice' men who think they are women in (and you are fitting less into this category with every post) we let every man who thinks he is a woman in, or any man who says he is a woman.

It not 'fine' we say no.

I can't quite work out whether Alpha is being deliberately provocative or if Alpha really believes in all this fluffy ladybrain nonsense. The offensiveness of that last paragraph is once again off the scale.

Avoidance of danger is a natural human trait. Most people don't deliberately put themselves in danger unnecessarily.

And why this idea that submissiveness goes hand in hand with avoiding danger? As though the fact that we have been sensible enough to avoid unnecessary danger means that we should roll over and let people walk all over us? How does that follow?

Indeed. To be fair, I tend to skim a lot of that posters comments. They're not the most articulate person, and the endless repetition doesn't deviate.

I find the women's responses much more interesting. The analysis is always spot on.

As OldCrone says, avoidance of danger is a human trait, not female! You are right that generally women aren't called cowards for avoiding danger but we are called bigots and transphobic for avoiding danger by saying no to men entering single sex spaces!
You making women feel fearful and submissive by invading their spaces clearly doesn't make you a woman, it proves the point that you are, in fact, a man!

@ArthurbellaScott It's always the same isn't it.

Them: I'm so calm and reasonable, I'm not one of those Malaga airport types. I'm totes a woman, can't you tell, look I've even acquired breasts, and I'm loving the feel of my skirts that go spinny, I'm too afraid to use the gents as I'm so womanly and feminine and submissive and despite being over six foot and built like a brick shit house will be in danger. So i will use the women's facilities.

Us: but what about the safety and dignity of us women who don't want man in our single sex spaces?

Them: I don't give a fuck.

Us: please don't use women's single sex spaces, by doing that women will be forced to self exclude

Them: NO!

Well that ended predictably.

To the women here who were hopeful of being able to have a reasonable discussion with a reasonable person, and a belief that if women just explained properly a solution could be found - I'm sorry. It's a kick in the teeth to realise you've been had.

This is why so many of the longer termers here are so very cynical; we've been in your position of hopeful engagement, often years ago, and it ends this way every time . Every single time.

As with the mid life crisis script so well known on the relationships board, there's a script here too. It's all about getting you to dance and feed attention or humiliation or whatever the current one particularly likes, no different to the midnight misogynist that used to hang out in these parts to poke women and watch the reactions in the early hours.

I mean 'charitably be excluded so that male people feeling vulnerable can be happy'...... it is beyond nasty to discover that your being a good person who is easy to manipulate has been weaponised against you and you've been used. But the slip always comes eventually, the mask falls and you see how much you swallowed of the low level, subtle stuff before it got obvious enough. This is what the whole situation is. 'just want to pee' is as manipulative as the rest of it, all designed to play on your sympathies. It's all about using you. All of it. It's all about someone getting their jollies with you, and your body, while talking the script at you to get you to enable them. Which makes the jollies so much jollier. So important to remember: a male in a woman's space has already demonstrated they are a boundary violator. A male with no respect for women or their consent.

Want to see women abused in real time? Here it is. And you can find the other threads where it's followed the same path, with the same script. It's a bitter, bitter experience. Which is why it's time for bloody hard boundaries, legally enforced. In the same way that you cannot be reasonable or find middle ground with someone who feels entitled to burgle your house, and will respect only law and hard consequences. Because they have no respect for you or anything else that conflicts with what they want at the time.

Boiledbeetle

Exactly. It's an Identikit way of behaving. Look at the transwidows threads. "'The Script' barely deviates. Including the men not realising they're reading from it. All fondly imagining they're unique.

What Frood said. All of it.