Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

I really hate schools. I wish there was a way for young people to learn stuff without going to those dark satanic mills.

Sorry - that was badly off topic.

Have you got yourself a RADAR key so that you are safe from the bullies? and if that’s a complete solution for him, why is it not a complete solution for you?

Mine was worse because they ordered us to have short hair.

a school having a uniform policy is worse than a school that won’t protect kids from severe bullying and gaslights the parents of the victims about it.

I don’t think the moderation policies would let me express my opinion of that opinion.

Some schools are beyond horrendous.

DS loves purple too.

In the nineties the cool lads were growing their hair despite the school rules.

How is it that gender stereotypes are now so regressive again? I can't help feeling that attitudes like Peter Tatchell's are feeding into this. When everything is so binary it's no wonder some kids can be convinced they're trans if they don't fit in to the boy/girl stereotypes.

I have to put my safety first

Lol, how's that 'submissiveness' working out for you, Alpha?

🤣

@Datun
You're one of the most interesting people on this board and part of me would love to share a pint with you and talk about this stuff. But clearly we are on opposite sides of the divide so I suspect that will never happen.

I think that avoidance of danger is an understandable and natural female trait. Nobody calls a woman a "coward" for avoiding danger, after all. I think being fearful and submissiveness go hand in hand - don't you agree?

She's brilliantly coherent and can think on her feet.

i'm sure all the research she did for her book has resulted in various concepts just tripping off her tongue, but that wouldn't account for the awesome level of articulation she displays. Very smart woman. And twinkly, like she's constantly suppressing the snorting.

I would love to debate with Helen Joyce, but I suspect she's got better things to do.

@AlphaTransWoman You see Terfosaurus’ son won’t use the disabled/accessible toilet because he won’t take the toilet for someone who needs it. Someone, for example, like my friend whose bag leaked as she was waiting for the queue of non disabled people use the only toilet cubicle she could get her wheelchair into. She went home and missed the second half.

Good you understand the concept of invisible disabilities. Just over one in one hundred people has some sort of epilepsy. My DD’s school plan specifically says she is not to use the disabled toilet. Her school still has a girls toilet block (with the door gaps) so if she collapsed suddenly, people would notice from the outside of the cubicle. Having these types of toilets was the reason she could attend school.

So, as a previous poster says, you go into two different sets of toilets rather than the one you should be.

Q) Why are you so special that you take away the rights of vulnerable people to access a safe toilet?

@Tinysoxxx

Is there literally nothing I can offer that will be acceptable to you?

Very obvious and straightforward answer:
Go to the men’s toilets.

Or a mixed-sex toilet if there are not any men’s toilets (such as in small shops).
If you have any disabilities which you have not disclosed where a disabled toilet is more appropriate, then use that if available.

You don’t need to ‘offer’ me anything. There is no bargaining. You go to the toilet of the sex that you are (and that means biological sex if you are misunderstanding). Easiest and safest rules for society.

OK so it's a no, then. On that particular issue. I hope there are other things we can come to an agreement on.

Delurking as I have been following this discussion with some interest and would really like to understand so @AlphaTransWoman i wonder if you could address the these posts

“stillplentyofjunkinthetrunk · Yesterday 19:07
@AlphaTransWoman Haven't we spent enough time talking about the toilet?
Did we change your mind? If the answer is no, then clearly no we have not yet said it clearly or often enough. Try to think what words would make it possible for you to hear women saying 'no'. How often DO they need to say it for you to hear? How many women repeating it WOULD be enough?

These are all rhetorical questions but try to think about them for yourself moving forward. I feel your binary of IF there is a unisex toilet is disingenuous there IS a unisex toilet, always. The question is how far out of your way you're prepared to go to use it.

Again I only ask rhetorically, but 10 seconds, a minute? 5 minutes if there's a unisex toilet on another floor? 10 minutes if there's a unisex toilet in another building? Half an hour, an hour?

OK as a thought experiment the rules are different, your choices are the men's or the unisex toilet. You absolutely know with 100% certainty that if you use the ladies you will be expelled / fired / arrested. Does your answer change?

I suspect you're personally more invested in not using the men's than you are in using the ladies (not the case for all tw you're a very diverse group).

Again I don't expect you to answer me but think about it. If you'd go 1 minute out of your way to avoid using the ladies and 1hour out of your way to avoid using the men's this is where the impression comes from that you're prioritising your own feelings and comfort over the feelings and comfort of women.”

And

“lechiffre55 · Yesterday 20:42
@AlphaTransWoman
Hypothetically if you were living alone on an island with all amenities, robots did everything, but there were no other humans, would you still feel more comfortable living as a woman even though there were no men and no women on the island?
If you had lived on that island since birth with no other humans do you think you would still want to be a woman?
The robots do not look like humans, they take care of each other as well as you, you want for nothing, they taught you how to speak and read. There are no pictures of men or women.”

I know the posters posted as rhetorical questions and are not expecting to be answered ( and I guess I have little expectation too) but I think your answers would open the whole debate out and maybe offer greater clarity, so why not start you debate with answering these questions ?? and you never know who might pop along to debate with you

I hope there are other things we can come to an agreement on.

Well I’d be happy if we could agree you’ll stay out of women’s single-sex spaces, and honestly, apart from that, I don’t care what you do, how you dress, how you feel. My interest in you is based purely on your persistent and unapologetic invasion of my spaces.

Alpha

Believe me, you are not going to be abused, or beaten up in the gents. As far as I'm aware, there are no recorded incidents of transw being assaulted in the gents in Britain.

And please listen, Stop Using The Disabled Toilets! You have no legal right to do so.

And listen to the many women here, who have told you repeatedly that your presence in the ladies intimates and disturbs them, please!

I am so sorry for your son. And glad he is no longer there at that school.

But this is not a derail though. It is a very good illustration of what we said earlier on the thread. And the evasive answer was exactly as expected and you were spot on to follow up.

And the eventual answer was as expected. And still this poster cannot see the misogyny of their answer. They are blind to it even though it has been pointed out now on multiple threads.

”As I have told here before under a different user name she was in the bath as a teenager when her own father kicked the bathroom door in and dragged her out by her hair because she wasn't quick enough to get out when he wanted to piss. (Oh and there was another toilet available if push came to shove so he wasn't facing the prospect of wetting himself).”
Im sorry I can’t quote who posted this but I hope your mum is as ok as can be x
Ive reposted because it reminded me of my mums ex husband (will never call him step dad ever) would sit in the bath for hours at a time, the only toilet and 4 sometimes 6 little kids in the house but now I think about it never when his 2 oldest were there.
I had to wet myself, because a grown man with 6 fucking kids (2 of us weren’t his we just existed under his roof) had the time to bathe for hours so none of the rest of us could do bodily functions with dignity.
Bet my mum would have loved an hour to herself behind a locked door.
An English man’s home is his castle, and English man’s toilet is his throne.

”I think that avoidance of danger is an understandable and natural female trait. Nobody calls a woman a "coward" for avoiding danger, after all. I think being fearful and submissiveness go hand in hand - don't you agree?”

Fuck. There is that misogyny again. The poster’s avoidance of danger does not make them a female.

This is not an excuse they can use to use the female single sex spaces. They are now weaponising female fear reactions for their own desire to use the female single sex spaces.

And on this very thread have also then invited another vulnerable male person to do the same! Using the placating ‘I would hope women would take a charitable approach to him using their toilets.’

Just to be clear, this is a male person who not only uses the female single sex spaces when there is no mixed sex alternative, but sees the female toilet as a sanctuary for ALL vulnerable male people.

terfasaurus has pointed out that her son is a young man with long hair who has suffered bullying. Yet, this male poster has been invited this young man into the female single sex spaces! (And terfasaurus has brought him up well and he doesn’t see this as even an option!)

But talk about truth telling! This post in particular must surely be one of those light bulb moments for any who hadn’t seen all the posts leading to this.

This submissiveness that has appeared all over these threads has been performative, as I initially thought. It is part of their created identity based around regressive stereotypes. And it was clear the moment this poster declared they would never stop using female single sex toilets if no mixed sex option was available that kindness was all part of this ‘living the stereotype’. There is little kindness in what we have seen posted previously.

But this male poster has just invited another male person to use the female single sex toilets while delivering what amounts to a lecture in morality to female people all in this short paragraph:

”if a terrified child has literally no other option, I would hope women would take a charitable approach to him using their toilets”

And terfasaurus was clear her son is a teenaged child, not an under 8 year old.

There is nothing kind or submissive in inviting another male person into female single sex spaces. It is cruel and it is simply an act of male entitlement and male supremacy.

I can only assume that if this male poster was in a position where they were with a male friend who was vulnerable in a male toilet and there was no mixed sex toilet option, that this male poster would feel free to take the friend into the female toilet with them.

It doesn’t seem to have sunk in despite being said numerous times that this person should be campaigning to make male toilets safer. Probably because they are dishonestly believing they are in a submissive role and no ‘womanly woman’ would ever become an activist.

They have stated clearly that they wish to feel loved and protected, because that is what being ‘female’ is to them. So, I expect that in this poster’s mind, women who are outliers become activists. All other ‘women’ will allow and expect male people to fix any issues in society as it doesn’t fit the submissive role.

But it is all about prioritising male people with this poster. It seems that the male version of woman gets to draw their ”line in the sand” that they should use the female single sex spaces. The female people saying ‘no’, are to be ignored. They are much lower down on the priority list.

so all the men you encounter are, what? 8 foot tall and comparatively broad?

I’m 4’11” and weigh 8 stone.

Teenagers, let alone men can physically pick me up like a parcel.

you have no idea what safe/unsafe means because you’re big and I’m small.

Ever feel vulnerable as a child around adults? Was it cos of the clothing? No it was physical differences.

This “submissive by choice” fantasy has nothing to do with how women actually navigate the world and the genuinely complicated choices we have to make around making a stand and prioritising our own safety and the safety of any children we are responsible for.

It was partly the ‘submissiveness’ as discussed by this poster that pointed out, very clearly, that there ultimately is no difference between them and the type of male trans person they scorn. The fetishist.

Thing is, if there were no female toilets, he'd still have the choice to keep on doing what he does, he'd just maybe tone it down a bit (maybe not) and use the gents.

The difference is with actual females, we'd just have to stay home.

As always operation #letthemspeak is truly enlightening

the answer is still no, we want our stuff back!