Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

It’s been great to see women standing up for themselves and each other on this thread.

I had the misfortune to be flashed at (again) last year. My first instinct was to carry on as if nothing had happened and I could feel myself trying to act completely normal, as if nothing out of the ordinary had occurred. Then I remembered that I’m one of us, that I’m sick of this shit, and went after the guy to try and get a picture before I rang the police. Amazingly, they got him and he went back to prison (not his first rodeo either 🙄😡).

So yes my natural reaction was to not upset the man who had committed a sexual crime against me. That's how I’m programmed, apparently.

@AlphaTransWoman i asked about this on your ama, but you didn't answer. As you're here talking about toilets I'll ask again if that's OK.

My son has been on the receiving end of transphobic abuse in the school toilets. He's not trans, but teen boys can be absolute twats. He no longer feels comfortable using the mens toilets.
Is it acceptable for him to use the ladies? And if not, why not? He's really kind and lovely btw. Severe anxiety means he wouldn't even look at someone, let alone say anything.

And before anyone else tells me it's not acceptable for him to use the ladies, I know that. But I'd like to know what alpha thinks about it.

Bloody well done. And thank you.

So yes my natural reaction was to not upset the man who had committed a sexual crime against me. That's how I’m programmed, apparently.

It's incredible how instinctive this is. I had to deal with a man recently who I know to be very unpredictable (and who I supsect thinks I'm a raging terf and hates me for it!) I found myself, yes, fawning, and almost simpering, which is not like me at all. Almost at the same time, my brain was asking myself why I was behaving like that as I don't actually even like him. A little later I realised what had been going on.

Sorry about your experience @MassiveWordSalad and well done for realising quickly and getting the photo!

@Terfosaurus

I'm really sorry I missed this one last time, and I do feel for your son. This sounds like a fairly clear case where use of the accessible toilets would be appropriate, and I can't imagine anyone begrudging him that. Not all disabilities are visible.

So I would see about getting him a RADAR key if I were you. And give him a hug from me because I know what teenage boys can be like to someone who doesn't fit in with their idea of how people should be.

That doesn't really answer my question about if he should use the ladies though.

He won't use the accessible ones, because he doesn't consider himself to need to.

I'm utterly fed up of it all @ArthurbellaScott

I bet there's not a woman on this thread who hasn't been sexually abused in some way (I know you've been brave enough to share one of your stories )

Letting men into women's spaces is only going to make things worse.

I hate that you were put in that position @rhywlodes

I can honestly say it's the women of FWR that gave me the backbone!

It sounds like your son is a very principled individual, which does him great credit. But nobody should live in fear just because they need to use the toilet. They are called "accessible" toilets because they are there to help anyone who cannot use the normal ones.

Still doesn't answer of you think he spíd use the ladies or not. If he has no other choice.

New book of poems coming soon....

Sample below!

I'm not sure if this is some sort of trap, but if a terrified child has literally no other option, I would hope women would take a charitable approach to him using their toilets.

Personally I hope all the bullying little shits get expelled so the boys toilets is safe for all minor males.

Girls are not a human sheild.

I'm curious; is there anyone you think should not be welcomed into the women's toilets?

Women it would seem!

Girls who play rugby and wear trousers.

Probably.

If he was a small child i wouldn't hesitate to take him into the ladies.

Hes 17 and 5ft 10.

Sadly school told me there's no issue with bullying and suggested he cut his hair.

Thank fuck hes left that school now.

Anyway, this is becoming a major derail so I apologise.

Then get him a RADAR key and tell him it's OK to keep himself safe from the bullies.

I don't think "avoidance of appalling male behaviour" was ever one of the reasons that accessible toilets were dreamt up. They were fought and lobbied for by people with specific needs.

A whole raft of problems could be solved by men cleaning up their house. For example, when a man feels that he is not masculine enough to be accepted by other men, he could insist that actually, some men are not stereotypically masculine and might have traits that are stereotypically associated with women. But he is still a man. He could insist, and even campaign for attitudes to be changed towards people like him, that if he wants to wear a skirt, he should be accepted as a man who wears skirts. He could fight for the day that it is totally normal for a man to go into the men's toilets in a skirt and lipstick without anyone raising an eyebrow. Call it 'adjusting the bandwidth' of what it is to be male. Work towards an idea of masculinity that includes his 'womanly' traits, because he is a man that has those traits, so what it is to be a man isn't all just machismo. It could be done, instead of trying to opt into womanhood, which can't be done.

The moderation policy probably won't allow me to tell you what I think of that school. Mine was worse because they ordered us to have short hair.

You still aren't answering the question. Should my son, use the ladies toilets?

And he will not use the accessible toilets. You don't even need a radar key for most of them where I live. It's a moot point. He will not use them.

School are wankers, frankly.

for all the anti bullying initiatives, it seems very little is improving for teenagers.

No wonder some kids try to change gender boxes, it usually takes getting out of school to have the clarity of mind to recognise that the boxes need stomping flat and chucking in the recycling.

My boy still has glorious long blonde curls (at 6’3 and nearly 24) and his favourite colour to wear is purple!

So not intent on using women's toilets you are advocating for every Tom Dick and Harry to use the disabled toilets.

is there any group you don't feel the compunction to trample all over?

Being bullied is not nice. But the answer is not for men and teenage boys to use facilities designed for other groups.