Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

You don’t NEED to use the ladies’. You WANT to.

Please stop trying to insult our intelligence.

Again. How many times do we need to say ‘No’?

Why are people with XY chromosomes so massively entitled they believe their ‘feelings’ are more important than women’s ?

NO!

Perhaps the people earlier in the thread who went on about how "reasonable" MTFs like Alpha are can begin to see the issue now. They'll see it one day, I'm sure.

16:46 - I feel like I am being unfairly categorized with those trans women who cheerfully march into any women's space they feel like entering even when a perfectly viable unisex alternative is available.

18:35 - I don't need to use the women's toilets. I need to not use the men's toilets. Because I'm not a man. That's the line in the sand.

Not using the men's toilets makes you exactly one of "those trans women"

I wonder if he's enjoying the attention.

Discussing with this alphamale poster was interesting at first but has quickly become us just banging our heads against a wall.

@catduckgoose oh for sure he is!

I do find it genuinely difficult to empathise with women who feel that, in Western societies at the current stage in history, women are oppressed and kept at a disadvantage by men

Tell me you are a man without telling me you are a man.
@AlphaTransWoman ln your own bloody words women are happy to 'take a supporting role', Is that honestly your how you think equality looks? You are oppressing us and disadvantaging us by entering our spaces, by telling us how to feel, what to think and how to behave.
You avoid the fear of men by using the ladies we ask you again how do we avoid the fear (oh an we don't just feel it in the loos, we feel it walking down the street, we feel it when a man (what ever he is wearing) stands too close on the tube.

A lot of these males get more female attention now than they've ever got in their lives. It doesn't matter what kind.

…and there we have it.

My line in concrete is my Dds safety. She needs accessible single sex toilets that offer visibility in case she has a seizure. She’s had major surgery from the damage from one. She needs to be as safe as possible. That means single sex care in hospitals and single sex facilities.

Your line in the sand is not even reality- based.

Your wife has empathy to deal with you dressing in clothes she doesn’t like on you (as you said). Tip: if you really want to feel more like a woman you need to try some empathy towards others. Women are very good at that.

What a find you are!

WOMEN SAY NO!

it doesn’t matter how much synthesised yam you consume, you will never be female and we don’t want to share FEMALE ONLY spaces with males.

"I do feel uncomfortable on the rare occasions I have needed to use the women's toilets. I have to put my safety first, and I think most women appreciate this."

I don't. If you don't feel safe going into men's loos in your chosen outfits. How about you just put on jeans and a sweatshirt like most people wear and get on with your day by using men's facilities.

It's not about your safety is it?

But you are a man and there's no getting away from it.

I do find it genuinely difficult to empathise with women who feel that, in Western societies at the current stage in history, women are oppressed and kept at a disadvantage by men.

charming. And again your male privilege just shines on through. Well i was fired for being pregnant. I was routinely paid less for doing the same job in several different industries. Despite my 60 hour weeks men with less skill experience promoted over my head etc etc etc

but you do you.
Everything you say is insulting. Everything. From putting your safety and comfort first to the absolutely absurd assertion that you "live like a woman"

you. do. not. have. the. slightest. clue.

Practically every post Alpha made on that AMA thread is offensive and insulting. I suspect it's no accident.

'My personality, as I perceive it to be, is more closely aligned with the behaviour I observe in women than that I observe in men'.

'I like the feeling of having a feminine body.'

'Having experienced the sheer joy of wearing dresses and skirts, I can tell you nobody is taking that away from me, ever.'

'I do, however, believe there are fundamental differences between the sexes, arising from the evolutionary roles of males as hunters and warriors and women as caregivers.'

'I therefore don't think that the presence of a cross dressing paraphilia invalidates a trans woman's gender identity or means she should be treated differently from other trans women.'

'I happen to be attracted to women, so as a woman this would logically make me a lesbian.'

'I can't tell you how wonderful it is to have a real set of breasts if you've lived for several decades without one.'

'I think ultimately is is about men tending to be more competitive and rational while women tend to be more cooperative, empathic and emotional. Men generally like to be assertive and in charge of things, women are more likely to to be kind and take a supporting role.

I've always been attracted to women and wanted be be a woman from a very early age because I value feminine traits over masculine ones. I also love the way women like to be attractive and wear nicer clothes.'

'I'm not walking into a room full of men standing there holding their penises while I'm wearing a dress. Can you see why that might be an issue?'

'I feel like a woman inside.'

'women tend to have low self-esteem and doubt their own abilities. They therefore lack the confidence to compete with men on a level playing field'

'If you must know the truth, it's because I'm actually quite a submissive person when you get through all the layers. And society says it's shameful for a man to be like that, but OK if you are a woman.'

'When I hear "She", I immediately think in terms of someone who is vulnerable and needs to be cared for, but is also a caring person.'

'I tend to be passive and emotionally dependent. I would consider myself to be a lesbian, although I realise many people here object to be describing myself as such.'

'one major privilege women get in prison - the right to wear their own clothing.'

'I'm getting tired of repeating myself. I only use the women's toilets if there is no accessible or other gender neutral toilet available. This is for my personal safety. Also, I should not be using the men's toilets because I am not a man.'

'I'm pretty sure I'm not the only woman with a penis.'

'I can't guarantee I'll never set foot in the ladies' toilet again, but if I do it will be only in an emergency situation. I'm frankly terrified of using the gents, and I'm sure you don't literally expect me to wet myself.'

'I'd rather be on Team Kind than Team Nasty.'

'I'm not walking into a room full of men standing there holding their penises while I'm wearing a dress. Can you see why that might be an issue?'

Hmmm. Why would it be, do we think?

It's most odd that you claim to be a woman based on some stereotypical and frankly bullshit 'female characteristics, and then are acting like one of your stereotypical men that you claim you are not.

Oh,he's one of those lesbians with a penis.

Oh wait, it's not odd, it's entirely predictable

Alpha you think women no longer face oppression because you are a man. You can deny it, but you are a man if you were a woman you would know the fear, you would know the million little ways in which the world is designed to fit men (crash test dummies, the size of power tools etc etc but hey we get pushchairs and hoovers). You would ponder why panels talking about the impact of trans ideology on women always have more males than females on them. You would know that one of main political parties in this country has never been lead by a woman. You would snort when you see a headline that reads Eddie Izzard says he will never play a phrase we reject for biological woman. I assume he thinks he's doing us a favour but we know he will never be cast a woman. Your total lack of comprehension screams I am a man. You don't see a problem so we can all get back to darning socks (apart from you of course, you get to be a lady boss).

I had the same thought @murasaki - it's very instructive

I have to put my safety first, and I think most women appreciate this

No mate.

My life and reality does not revolve around what goes on between your ears. It really doesn't.

You are a man. That is the reality. You have spaces. That you are unhappy about this is not my problem, and why should it be? You have no interest in my problems when you come and meet your needs in the women's space I'm in. You also have zero sensitivity towards me or interest in what upsets me, it doesn't matter to you, so why should I continue to protect you from words and realities that upset you?

I am not less human than you. I do not matter less than you. I am not your mum. I am not your support animal.

Use the men's.

It's really not hard to understand.

Women would like to use the public toilets without encountering a man in them. No matter how that man feels like describing themself.

Just needing to repeat this on each page, really. For any readers that miss it.

We are being patted on the head while being told that we don’t matter as much as the feelings of a male who simply keeps repeating that they feel unsafe without understanding that many male people feel unsafe. Just because this male chose to change their body and then chooses to wear clothes people associate with women, doesn’t change the fact ever that they are male.

And like other vulnerable male people, should be fucking campaigning to make male single sex spaces safer if there is an issue.

But no. There is an inherent dishonesty here being repeated to justify access ‘when needed’ to female single sex spaces.

same old, same old.