Page 26 | Trans Ideology - a real life debate

Forester1 · 2023-10-26T18:11:26+00:00

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate For me positions can be summarised as: Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind. [[https://youtu.be/Va3i-_Fbfpo?feature=shared Link to YouTube video]]

Agrona · 30/10/2023 18:53

How many women have to say “NO” before a man or trans woman listens?

ArthurbellaScott · 30/10/2023 18:53

n+1, agrona.

catduckgoose · 30/10/2023 18:54

AlphaTransWoman · 30/10/2023 18:35

I don't need to use the women's toilets. I need to not use the men's toilets. Because I'm not a man. That's the line in the sand.

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The reality is that you are a man, even if you don't want to be. How you deal with that is up to you, but it's entirely unacceptable for this to involve imposing yourself in women's spaces.

Ladyof2022 · 30/10/2023 18:55

I love this thread almost as much as I liked watching the video.

EasternStandard · 30/10/2023 18:56

AlphaTransWoman · 30/10/2023 18:35

I don't need to use the women's toilets. I need to not use the men's toilets. Because I'm not a man. That's the line in the sand.

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What about the line in the sand for women?

Those who would like single sex spaces

ChishiyaBat · 30/10/2023 18:58

We don't matter @EasternStandard !

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 30/10/2023 18:58

So that's my 80 year old mum, my Muslim friends, my Jewish college, my friend who was raped, my diabetic niece and my just turned teenaged god daughter all unable to use the ladies. Where do they go @AlphaTransWoman ? What is the answer for their needs? Still I suppose it gets us all a bit closer to your sugary sweet view of nice, quiet, little things that will stay at home and not go about having hobbies, interests and careers.
The question is once women are driven out of public spaces how will you get your validation.
The men's really aren't dangerous - I used them in the past when the womens were out of action (don't worry I wouldn't do so any more men deserve their dignity and privacy even if women aren't a threat to them). As you have proven by describing Freda Wallace as an 'attractive woman' men won't notice you are male and the vast majority of men wouldn't attack a woman in a public place.

ArthurbellaScott · 30/10/2023 18:59

We don't get to write a line in the sand.

Not the right kind of equipment, presumably.

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 30/10/2023 18:59

catduckgoose · 30/10/2023 18:54

The reality is that you are a man, even if you don't want to be. How you deal with that is up to you, but it's entirely unacceptable for this to involve imposing yourself in women's spaces.

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All I read is, "I'm a nice pretendy woman, you must accept me, because I say so".
The "I say so", part, and him breaking down women's boundaries are exactly what makes him a man.
No, we see you.

EasternStandard · 30/10/2023 19:00

ArthurbellaScott · 30/10/2023 18:59

We don't get to write a line in the sand.

Not the right kind of equipment, presumably.

It’s the GRA, it gave the pens to the men

ArthurbellaScott · 30/10/2023 19:01

The penis mightier than the sward, etc.

EasternStandard · 30/10/2023 19:02

ArthurbellaScott · 30/10/2023 19:01

The penis mightier than the sward, etc.

😂

AlphaTransWoman · 30/10/2023 19:02

lechiffre55 · 30/10/2023 17:00

@AlphaTransWoman
Thank you for your answer. I like your first choice being any unisex facilities, this to me seems the best answer in a society that has not had time to adapt and make avilable more facilities to keep more people happy.
I'm probably overthinking this but I find it sort of strange that you must bump into these sort of situations depending on how often you go out dressed as a woman, but in the hypothetical you were happy that the woman had identified a possibly mutually acceptable solution. Don't you already have a set of strategies that you try when a situation crops up? You must encounter it more often than the avarage random woman.
Thinking about what it must be like from your point of view, when the other person is trying to be nice and polite I'm always willing to go that bit further, even if it's a difficult situation. How do small but potentially fraught encounters like this make you feel? You must at the least feel a little uncomfortable yourself when they arise. What does it cost you emotionally, and what are you getting that it's worth paying that cost?
I think you're bearing the brunt of a lot of bad faith actors that rock up here to FWR and think they have something clever to say, when its all stale dogma that's been flung a million times before. Others probably disagree but I think it's refreshing to have someone try to engage in good faith.
I think part of the frustration here is also that women's voices are always the last ones to be heard if at all. People make choices that affect women all the time, women more often than not don't get the slightest say. e.g. middle east right now. Imagine being able to hear your own voice, but everyone else pretends you're an invisible ghost. Do that for a few decades, you'd be angry too. I think you have every right to lead the best life you can and be the happiest you can, but remember sometimes our choices can come with a cost that other people pay, and if they haven't agreed to that cost, then we are taking from them without their consent. That causes resentment.

Thank you. I live as a woman full time and am having hormone therapy, resulting in some changes to my body which mean it would not be suitable for me to use male only spaces, even though I do not appear to be fully "female". I dress in traditionally female clothing all the time, partly because I like them but mostly because I want to make it clear that I am presenting as female.

I have never encountered any difficulty or hostility from women, including when using female toilets. I do get transphobic abuse from time to time, but this comes exclusively from men. I don't see why I should hide who I am because of these people, so I ignore them and avoid escalating the situation.

I would say the cost is mostly in terms of fear for my own safety, regret that there are some parts of the world I would be unsafe visiting and I do feel uncomfortable on the rare occasions I have needed to use the women's toilets. I have to put my safety first, and I think most women appreciate this.

The motivation is simply that I've always felt so unhappy living as a man that it eventually became impossible for me to thrive or be happy without becoming what I see to be my true self. I don't fully understand what causes gender dysphoria (I'm not sure anyone does), but my best guess is that I was somehow "meant" to be female in terms of my personality and the way I like to appear.

I do find it genuinely difficult to empathise with women who feel that, in Western societies at the current stage in history, women are oppressed and kept at a disadvantage by men. This is now how I perceive things, but I do acknowledge that my personal experience is limited and different to that of others. So I can understand how some women might feel resentful about the extent to which society is gendered and believe women still suffer some disadvantages relative to men. This does not however invalidate my own life experience and the way I feel about myself living as a man previously and now living as a woman.

EasternStandard · 30/10/2023 19:03

Although sadly, it turns out the law agrees and we get to lump it

Change the law I reckon

ArthurbellaScott · 30/10/2023 19:03

I have never encountered any difficulty or hostility from women, including when using female toilets.

Good lord, what women would challenge you?

EasternStandard · 30/10/2023 19:04

I have never encountered any difficulty or hostility from women, including when using female toilets.

Have you thought about why?

It’s linked to you not wanting to use the men’s

ArthurbellaScott · 30/10/2023 19:04

I have to put my safety first, and I think most women appreciate this.

Your safety ahead of that of women's. Got it.

I do find it genuinely difficult to empathise with women.

That much is clear.

ArthurbellaScott · 30/10/2023 19:07

It is not possible for a man to 'live as a woman'.

He can only ever live as his idea of a woman.

stillplentyofjunkinthetrunk · 30/10/2023 19:07

@AlphaTransWoman Haven't we spent enough time talking about the toilet?

Did we change your mind? If the answer is no, then clearly no we have not yet said it clearly or often enough. Try to think what words would make it possible for you to hear women saying 'no'. How often DO they need to say it for you to hear? How many women repeating it WOULD be enough?

These are all rhetorical questions but try to think about them for yourself moving forward. I feel your binary of IF there is a unisex toilet is disingenuous there IS a unisex toilet, always. The question is how far out of your way you're prepared to go to use it.

Again I only ask rhetorically, but 10 seconds, a minute? 5 minutes if there's a unisex toilet on another floor? 10 minutes if there's a unisex toilet in another building? Half an hour, an hour?

OK as a thought experiment the rules are different, your choices are the men's or the unisex toilet. You absolutely know with 100% certainty that if you use the ladies you will be expelled / fired / arrested. Does your answer change?

I suspect you're personally more invested in not using the men's than you are in using the ladies (not the case for all tw you're a very diverse group).

Again I don't expect you to answer me but think about it. If you'd go 1 minute out of your way to avoid using the ladies and 1hour out of your way to avoid using the men's this is where the impression comes from that you're prioritising your own feelings and comfort over the feelings and comfort of women.

Agrona · 30/10/2023 19:09

Too lazy to search but I recall a certain posters’ description of what they think woman are like. Supposedly they model their life around these ‘observations’.

One word was ‘fluffy’ if I recall correctly. Fluffy. Fluffy? I am not a kitten!

Is it physical or mental to be fluffy? Being mentally ‘fluffy’ is fluffy horrible! Being physically fluffy is what? Clothes, hair, not waxing everything?

FLUFFY!

EasternStandard · 30/10/2023 19:10

AlphaTransWoman · 30/10/2023 19:02

Thank you. I live as a woman full time and am having hormone therapy, resulting in some changes to my body which mean it would not be suitable for me to use male only spaces, even though I do not appear to be fully "female". I dress in traditionally female clothing all the time, partly because I like them but mostly because I want to make it clear that I am presenting as female.

I have never encountered any difficulty or hostility from women, including when using female toilets. I do get transphobic abuse from time to time, but this comes exclusively from men. I don't see why I should hide who I am because of these people, so I ignore them and avoid escalating the situation.

I would say the cost is mostly in terms of fear for my own safety, regret that there are some parts of the world I would be unsafe visiting and I do feel uncomfortable on the rare occasions I have needed to use the women's toilets. I have to put my safety first, and I think most women appreciate this.

The motivation is simply that I've always felt so unhappy living as a man that it eventually became impossible for me to thrive or be happy without becoming what I see to be my true self. I don't fully understand what causes gender dysphoria (I'm not sure anyone does), but my best guess is that I was somehow "meant" to be female in terms of my personality and the way I like to appear.

I do find it genuinely difficult to empathise with women who feel that, in Western societies at the current stage in history, women are oppressed and kept at a disadvantage by men. This is now how I perceive things, but I do acknowledge that my personal experience is limited and different to that of others. So I can understand how some women might feel resentful about the extent to which society is gendered and believe women still suffer some disadvantages relative to men. This does not however invalidate my own life experience and the way I feel about myself living as a man previously and now living as a woman.

Show quote history

I have to put my safety first, and I think most women appreciate this.

And if we say we want to put our safety first and have single sex spaces will you listen?

spannasaurus · 30/10/2023 19:11

I do find it genuinely difficult to empathise with women who feel that, in Western societies at the current stage in history, women are oppressed and kept at a disadvantage by men
Alpha when do you believe the oppression of women by men stopped?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/10/2023 19:12

The only way one can "live as a woman" is to be born female and survive to adulthood. There's no alternative way in or out.

AlphaTransWoman · 30/10/2023 19:12

DuesToTheDirt · 30/10/2023 17:15

Thank you for your question. It's worth noting that I would only intend to use the women's toilet if there wasn't a unisex alternative available.

Where are these places with actual, unisex alternatives. The only unisex facilities I've seen, apart from places like cafes with only one loo, are disabled toilets (another issue, obviously) and women's toilets with a unisex sign on the door.

I generally use the accessible toilets. This is something I have discussed with my healthcare provider and they advised me that my anxiety around using sex-specific facilities was a perfectly valid reason for me doing so. Thankfully most places have them these days and it is very rare that I need to use the ladies'.

ChishiyaBat · 30/10/2023 19:13

@AlphaTransWoman me me me that's all you ever say, we have all told you multiple times how uncomfortable you being in OUR spaces makes us, but all you care about is you! No woman in a toilet is going to confront you a 6ft man in a dress because we would be too scared to. If you aren't going to listen and stay out of our spaces then it's time you fucked off and stop wasting our precious time!