Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

Statistics show that males who are trans are no less safe than any other vulnerable male.

Oh! So refusal to use the men’s loos might not actually be about the danger?

Just to repeat for newcomers to this thread, there are many different ways a female person will use a toilet that requires privacy away from male gaze. Even nice ones who ‘just want to pee’ or ones who feel vulnerable in the male single sex spaces.

Often, women without caring duties will not have had to do this but it is not uncommon for women to have a push chair stuck in the door because you cannot shut it and you, as a recent mother, may have flooding periods to deal with.

Or you might have a child or a parent in a wheelchair when there is no accessible toilet available or free.

Or you have your shirt off or your trousers / skirt off dealing with blood, food or milk.

Or you might be vomiting with morning sickness or virus or any reason.

Or you might be dealing with menstrual blood at the sink.

Or… you might be unable to be in a space with an unknown male person for any reason!

These are not uncommon scenarios. I encounter women with their shirts off or unbuttoned regularly.

No male who respects women and girl’s needs would even consider using the female single sex spaces. ‘Just when there is no option’ is a dishonest depiction of the truth. The truth is. ‘Yes! I WILL use your spaces and if you have an issue with it, deal with it’. That is blunt reality of the situation.

Therefore, it is only different from other male attitudes by how often not by final outcome.

Firstly, no, we haven’t spent enough time ‘talking about the toilet’ because you are yet to understand that your presence in a female single sex space destroys the existence of the female single sex space completely.

and secondly, I can’t see any difference between you and any other male-with-lady-feels that won’t take no for an answer.

Use the unisex or the gents.
You don’t get our facilities as well.

if there is Ladies lav there is always a Gents as well, so there is NEVER a ‘no other option’ scenario.

Even my daughter’s girls school (1500 female pupils) has a small number of Gents lavatories.

I don't think my position on this - that I only use them if I absolutely must to avoid the men's which I consider unsafe is particularly extreme or unreasonable.

Something like 4 billion men manage to not take that position. I can assure you it's quite extreme.

Maybe some people didn't get the advanced Philosophy/Politics/Economics lesson from a mother or teacher - "What would happen if everybody did that, eh?" (Not sure how the Oxford PPE could top that.)

In fact, if everyone did that and spaces were all mixed sex, I suspect it would be safer/preferable than having spaces that are 'women plus males who want to use women's spaces'.

And when you 'absolutely must' what would you like the women you just excluded to do? When you've made their space unsafe and untenable just like you find the mens?

Where do they go? Who do they get to displace and mug for resources to meet their need?

I'm pretty sure 'they absolutely must' too, and have the same needs you do. Why do you matter in ways they don't?

Let’s see.

What happens when those male people that apparently make the male single sex spaces unsafe start using the female single sex spaces? Or is there some kind of magic badge that male people wear that makes them safe?

Does the logic fail not cause cognitive dissonance?

Male people who ignore people’s boundaries are the ones who would also cause harm in male single sex spaces. How many of those male people are now using the female single sex spaces?

Gosh… the logic fail never seems to occur to those who position themselves dishonestly as people who supposedly respect and “love” women so much. The complete lack of integrity and honesty is clear to others, not all, but enough women and men that the push back will not stop.

The discussion will not stop just because one poster declares their position is entirely reasonable and supposedly ‘not extreme’.

Presumably they can hold their periods/miscarriages in, Frood.

Apparently that's the lot of women when males have 'needs', Arabella I agree. They're not real humans like males and males matter most.

This is sex based, the power goes with the person with the penis. Asking women not to mention this and stop talking about toilets .... oh dream on.

When you're jumping up and down on my feet do not whine at me not to upset you by shouting 'get off'.

Apparently so.

The reality is women and girls will just keep risking UTIs and other health conditions so they don’t use public toilets with the ‘nice’ male people in them. We should all just wear incontinence products just in case. And more of us will just not go out.

No worries. The male people have needs and we just have to ‘deal’ with it. Because they certainly cannot be expected to ‘deal’ with their issues of using the male single sex provision. They could never do that!!!! Someone told them that women and girls won’t really mind and those few bigots, fuck them! They just have to ‘deal with their own needs some other way’.

Few more personal scenarios I would like to add :
I had a miscarriage and was helped by a kind woman who passed me rolls of loo paper (under the door gap) in a public toilet. It was distressing but she chatted to me and made the situation more bearable in a way a man couldn’t.

(The following require toilets to be accessible and a degree of visibility not suitable in mix sex toilets):

My child had a seizure in a cubicle because just before a seizure she feels like she may vomit. But she might vomit because she’s ill not a seizure. But when you feel ill in public, you go to the loo.

I rescued a Uni student who had collapsed - I saw their blue arm sticking out under the door gap. Too much alcohol? Drugs? Self harm?

One child rape is reported inside a U.K. school each school day. And so creating mixed sex private toilet cubicles is not going to help. But it appears that more mixed sex toilets are happening in schools too. I saw the first ‘my Dd won’t go to the loos at schools as pupils are having sex in them’ post the other day.

Apologies to those to heard this before. But no idea why @AlphaTransWoman insists he needs to use the woman’s toilets.

In fact, if everyone did that and spaces were all mixed sex, I suspect it would be safer/preferable than having spaces that are 'women plus males who want to use women's spaces'.

And as I've said on other threads, I suspect that will be the end result, that many women will take in their own men to feel safe.

And as I have said (ad nauseum) mixed sexed toilets are so much more dangerous.

And you can see that women explaining this to males who feel so entitled just makes those males cross and repeatedly explain that it doesn't matter because they have needs .

In the end, all they're saying is that they win. And they mean they expect to win and have that entitlement because they're male. End of.

Bottom line: large scary bloke? Women will give space and get out of dodge.

So do not expect to pull this crap and at the same time have women nicely tell lies about male people not being male if they say so, while said males exert male supremacism.

There's no "absolutely must", you don't need to use them at all. You desire to and choose to, despite being well aware that your presence is unwanted.

I don't need to use the women's toilets. I need to not use the men's toilets. Because I'm not a man. That's the line in the sand.

I feel like I am being unfairly categorized with those trans women who cheerfully march into any women's space they feel like entering

Sweetie, what's the diff?

You still don't care that I have to leave if you walk in. Whether you do it cheerfully waving a sword or do it apologetically, you've still just thrown me out of my space and mugged me for it.

I don't mind less having my bag snatched if the snatcher smiles at me and says sorry first.

That’s not a line, that’s over OUR line and you are engaging in colonisation.

But you are a man, just because you don't feel like one doesn't magically make you not a man!

Female single sex spaces are for female people, not for adult males-who-don’t-identify-as-men.

So sick of this utter bollox.

Yes. We know. As I said up thread, we are not misrepresenting your decision at all. You just don’t like to hear the ramifications of YOUR decision.

we are just amplifying your personal decision to all who read this thread and we are amplifying just how women and girls are negatively impacted, ie HARMED, by your personal decision.

Your decision is to ignore women and girl’s collective ‘line in the sand’. It is your decision. It is not your need.

I need to not use the men's toilets. Because I'm not a man. That's the line in the sand.

And women need you to not use the women's toilets, because you are not a woman. That is their line in the sand.

It is not up to women to give up their resources. They do not matter less than you. And this is all you are demonstrating repeatedly. That women are lesser and can lose so that they suffer what you're not prepared to yourself.

Fucksake. Women need their spaces. We need toilets for more than just pissing in, as detailed above. I'm over having to explain about how I was assaulted, women having to talk about their fucking miscarriages, menopause, religious beliefs, fears, worries, vulnerability. Just to beg some men to stay out.

Our spaces are our own. They are not for men. Stay the fuck out.