Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

And what about women and girls already in the space, or who enter to find you there.

You really do not respect women and girls at all and your answers show this. Every time. It is all
about you and never once truly about women and girls. It is blinding clear. But thanks for consistently showing this.

@AlphaTransWoman why are you unwilling to use the single sex toilets for your sex?

Nope. If a man uses a woman's space, a good proportion of women are excluded. And/or many women may well be upset, alarmed, distressed. Oh, well. Can't be helped, I suppose.

Hope you ladies enjoyed your time free of the urinary leash. How long did we get before patriarchy found another way to shut down women's rights?

Haven't we spent enough time talking about the toilet? I don't think my position on this - that I only use them if I absolutely must to avoid the men's which I consider unsafe is particularly extreme or unreasonable.

I feel like I am being unfairly categorized with those trans women who cheerfully march into any women's space they feel like entering even when a perfectly viable unisex alternative is available.

And every single time a male enters, even ‘just to pee’ a group of women and girls silently exclude themselves until such time they feel maybe those males who profess to care and empathize so very much with female people will finally, finally respect them and stay the fuck out.

But oh! That is right, we already know that some male people, including one on this thread, declare those women as being the ones with issues and those women and girls should just deal with it.

Will the repercussions of your very own decisions ever sink in alpha, or are determined to remain blind to those consequences.

You know, consequences of your decisions that mean women and girls are harmed and have to limit their life because of your actions.

No. We must talk about toilets because your position IS fucking unreasonable. You choose not to acknowledge it. Does it make you uncomfortable to hear that your decisions may likely directly harm women and girls?

Is that why you want us to stop?

oh well then…. Another example of the lack of symmetry right there. Male entitlement vs female needs! Whodathunkit

Haven't we spent enough time talking about the toilet?

Nope. We're not all bored yet.

I feel like I am being unfairly categorized with those trans women who cheerfully march into any women's space they feel like entering even when a perfectly viable unisex alternative is available.

Well, neither of you are in the category of people who belong in the ladies. Yes, one of you is doing it to be deliberately offensive to women and the other doesn't care enough about women to stay out. That's not a huge difference. And it's a difference of degree, not category.

No. Your decisions are being accurately represented. You just don’t like it.

And what are the women and girls meant to do? I suggest you start using the men's.

Women’s single sex spaces are not there to protect men from men, they are there to protect women from men. Good men stay out so bad men stand out. Men have frequently told me that they neither notice nor care who else is in the men’s toilets with them - how dangerous are they for transwomen, are there any studies or stats?

@AlphaTransWoman
Thank you for your answer. I like your first choice being any unisex facilities, this to me seems the best answer in a society that has not had time to adapt and make avilable more facilities to keep more people happy.
I'm probably overthinking this but I find it sort of strange that you must bump into these sort of situations depending on how often you go out dressed as a woman, but in the hypothetical you were happy that the woman had identified a possibly mutually acceptable solution. Don't you already have a set of strategies that you try when a situation crops up? You must encounter it more often than the avarage random woman.
Thinking about what it must be like from your point of view, when the other person is trying to be nice and polite I'm always willing to go that bit further, even if it's a difficult situation. How do small but potentially fraught encounters like this make you feel? You must at the least feel a little uncomfortable yourself when they arise. What does it cost you emotionally, and what are you getting that it's worth paying that cost?
I think you're bearing the brunt of a lot of bad faith actors that rock up here to FWR and think they have something clever to say, when its all stale dogma that's been flung a million times before. Others probably disagree but I think it's refreshing to have someone try to engage in good faith.
I think part of the frustration here is also that women's voices are always the last ones to be heard if at all. People make choices that affect women all the time, women more often than not don't get the slightest say. e.g. middle east right now. Imagine being able to hear your own voice, but everyone else pretends you're an invisible ghost. Do that for a few decades, you'd be angry too. I think you have every right to lead the best life you can and be the happiest you can, but remember sometimes our choices can come with a cost that other people pay, and if they haven't agreed to that cost, then we are taking from them without their consent. That causes resentment.

@AlphaTransWoman why do you consider the men’s facilities to be unsafe for you? I have no idea what you look like but other posters have said you are very tall and quite well built. What do you have to fear from other men? Do men often attack other men in public toilets? I am certain that if you went into a men’s toilet when my DH was in there, he would perhaps be surprised to see a man in a ‘woman’ costume but would mind his own business and get on with having a wee. I suspect most men would do the same.

I’m unsure why you can’t seem to ‘join the dots’ here to understand why the majority of women would feel unsafe if a man in woman-costume came into the women’s loos.

I don't think my position on this - that I only use them if I absolutely must to avoid the men's which I consider unsafe is particularly extreme or unreasonable.

It may not be "particularly extreme" in a relative sense but I consider it unreasonable.

Eurgh @AlphaTransWoman makes me sick! It's not a mutually acceptable solution, it's because the woman is probably scared of you and doesn't want to "make a scene". You are a selfish individual who only cares about yourself and how you feel. You never listen to anyone telling you how uncomfortable you make them by doing the things you do, you just carry on regardless! As long as you feel validated that's all that matters! And i've told you before it's not up to anyone else to validate you or see you for what you think and feel you are!

Thank you for your question. It's worth noting that I would only intend to use the women's toilet if there wasn't a unisex alternative available.

Where are these places with actual, unisex alternatives. The only unisex facilities I've seen, apart from places like cafes with only one loo, are disabled toilets (another issue, obviously) and women's toilets with a unisex sign on the door.

Males using female facilities makes the female facilities as unsafe as the male ones are.

I'd feel safer if you went first and I'd check you were well out of the way before I went in myself. Wouldn't want you hanging about outside.

It's like with driving, safest to pull in and let the nutter who's tailgating you overtake and drive away. That's the same kind of "mutually acceptable solution" and it has the same consequence - the tailgating nutter gets what they want and carries on thinking it's all fine to do what they do, the rest of us survive another day.

Oh, but @AlphaTransWoman is a "nice" man, so we should just accept him.
No, I won't.
The saying, "good men stay out, so bad men stand out", applies here.
Alpha is not a good man.

If the men's are 'unsafe', it's because there are men in there.

A man coming into the women's makes the women's unsafe for women.

Agreed @TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening he certainly is not a good man and definitely not a woman!

Exactly.

It’s pretty simple. It shows why we want our own single sex spaces

Oh but he doesn't March in, he perhaps walks in demurely, like a layydeee.
Fuck Right Off.

@TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening his heels clipping and clopping as he saunters in swishing his hair and his dress blowing in the breeze from the hand dryer.

What is good faith about listening to women and then telling them that if they have an issue with this poster being in the toilets, that is up to them to deal with? This poster declared this already. Several times and in different ways.

Is it the lack of flouncing and abuse that makes this seem more good faith than others? This approach, that they only use female single sex spaces ‘when they have no option’* is the same as we see regularly enough here. As others have said, it is just degree of usage that differs but otherwise it is the same outcome.

** reader, there is another option and one that other male trans people, even those considered to pass, use. The male toilets. Those male people report they have no issues. Statistics show that males who are trans are no less safe than any other vulnerable male.