Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

@ArthurbellaScott multiple posters on that thread expressed doubts about this "proposal"

Thanks, Eresh.

I am struck again by the asymmetry.

Why is it I am expected to make nice and shut up about a man using women's spaces, when this distresses me, because me talking about it might distress said person?

Why does one person's distress matter, and another person's distress not matter?

I'm very sorry this happened to you, Arabella.

Agreed. Women have or did have the right to spaces which exclude males no matter how they identify.

If a person believes their ‘identity’ and feelings are more important, it tells you all you need to know. Not respectful. Not kind.

I can't think of any public figures close to my own view, and I don't subscribe to Freda's position. My impression is that she thinks of GC feminists as a single minded group hostile to trans women and is therefore not particularly interested in negotiation and compromise. Whereas I think the range of views on both sides is a lot more complicated.

For example, reading Kathleen Stock's Material Girls, I see someone with whom I could negotiate practical solutions with while acknowledging differences in core beliefs. I don't think Freda would.

If a person believes their ‘identity’ and feelings are more important, it tells you all you need to know. Not respectful. Not kind.

Yes.

@ArthurbellaScott I do feel for you. Which is why I see third spaces as crucial and use them wherever possible. I have already undertaken to avoid places where third spaces are unavailable wherever practical, and I mean that.

If the ‘negotiation involves single sex spaces for women, you are shit out of luck, Alph, because the second a male person steps over the threshold, the single sex space no longer exists.

And there are millions of women that need a single sex space, and millions more who want a single sex space.

For the many, not the men-y.

I wonder if it's one of those gender swap apps that turn even the ugliest blokiest men into an attractive "female" version of themselves.

Alpha Do you feel sorry for my frail 80 year old mother who gives herself a UTI when faced with possibility of men in the women's toilet? (A remarkably common event when we are out and about as I live near a famously diverse city). As I have told here before under a different user name she was in the bath as a teenager when her own father kicked the bathroom door in and dragged her out by her hair because she wasn't quick enough to get out when he wanted to piss. (Oh and there was another toilet available if push came to shove so he wasn't facing the prospect of wetting himself). 60+ years later she is still too triggered to risk coming face to face with a man in the ladies.
But Alpha still thinks when the choice is men's or women's he can choose women's so he doesn't feel sad.

Wallace is increasingly becoming more unhinged.

Let Women Speak London - Wallace threatening women www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4930917-let-women-speak-london-wallace-threatening-women

When Wallace tells us who he is, we should believe him

As @ArthurbellaScott said on the linked thread, it's an illustration of why we don't want to share our spaces with males like Wallace. And we're not psychic as to whether individual MTFs are the Wallace type.

I am angry that this happened to you.

On the diverse ways distress seems to matter: Women are expected to be the social, psychological, and sexual support staff, so women's distress does not matter as much as the distress of other groups. If our role is seen as supporting others only, then we are naturally expected to hand over our rights when someone else wants them.

I've been struck by how many women in feminism don't think that women's distress matters, unless they can interpret its cause as coming from some other type of oppression or -ism. Truly fascinating, and suggests that even human rights are subject to fashion changes and women's rights are currently out of fashion in many places on this planet (though not in every single country).

I have already undertaken to avoid places where third spaces are unavailable wherever practical

What does the 'wherever practical' mean, though?

Sadly Alpha is with Tatchell on this one: if you wear trousers you're a bloke.

And Alpha has repeatedly used ridiculous outdated, sexist gender stereotypes to describe women. Then said that because they like the feel of women's clothes - that makes them a woman.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.

I think the idea that women are expected to subjugate or tolerate more than men are supposed to, can be very deep seated. I also expect that it is uncomfortable to hear about women's distress. We don't want to hear about it and may even feel angry for a woman for discussing her distress or abuse.

Various reasons - some women feel we are 'letting the side down', perhaps. I've been accused of trying to 'use' my experience to manipulate other women into agreeing with me, on here, on this board. I've also been told outright by someone that they don't believe me, that I've made it up, and also that it wasn't really sexual assault, because the man didn't touch me.

(And I've also had a lot of kindness shown by the wonderful women on here, too, of course. That is appreciated.)

Stepping back from this particular experience, it is quite a curious phenomenon to see how people respond to women talking about their abusive history, or trauma. There's often anger, that may show up as disgust or attack.

Then consider how transwomen are treated, when talking about their fear or distress. Same anger? I don't see it. Why is that?

Stepping back from this particular experience, it is quite a curious phenomenon to see how people respond to women talking about their abusive history, or trauma. There's often anger, that may show up as disgust or attack.

Sorry for the analogy but in sports there is the phenomenon of BIRG (basking in reflected glory) for when your team wins with the counterpart of CORF (cutting off reflective failure) when your team loses.

When women react adversely to other women's trauma, I wonder if it's Cutting Off Reflected Vulnerability that it too uncomfortable to contemplate.

There is also years of cultural training that good women don't put themselves first; the whole psychology and anthropology of how the powerless gather what power they can by making up to those with power and being indispensible/allies, and the basic training from early childhood to stroke male egos. And to nobly not look for or expect reciprocal notice or attention as something beneath male people.

You only have to spend five minutes on a MiL thread to find some proud female masochist boasting about how her MiL burned the house down and ate the children and they never complained or failed to be a properly submissive doormat. And five minutes on AIBU to see what women expect and demand of each other, the incredible strength, resilience, capacity to not get bogged down in feelings when things need doing, and bluntness - that you never see extended to men. Women don't talk to men like that. Even here the punches are very much pulled and even so the shock is tangible at the lack of normal provided service. Or that a little bit of headpatting and reasonability doesn't get them back in line and eating out of your hand.

And bluntly, when males talk here, I see a hell of a lot of belief from those males that expressing sad feelings (or headmasterly disappointment in the case of some of the more tediously patriarch stereotype fond ones) is some kind of trump card that will either make mummy pick them up - and mummy is just the faceless, personalityless, needless provider and soother with unconditional nurture however much baby kicks and bites - or that little girls will do what daddy says.

It's infuriating bollocks. All of it. And most of it is based on expectation of 'love' meaning 'sickly sentimentality'. There is no concept of the kind of tough love that actual womanhood and motherhood understands and (used to) celebrate and put into words before feminism became all about stroking male egos and other male bits.

• I will add SOME males. There are some excellent MNetters who for years I have never known were male until they happened to mention it in passing, and do not behave like this towards women. I am talking more about the 'man here' type posters to whom this is the most important thing to announce when arriving to talk to the troops.

When women react adversely to other women's trauma, I wonder if it's Cutting Off Reflected Vulnerability that it too uncomfortable to contemplate.

I think that is highly likely.

When women react adversely to other women's trauma, I wonder if it's Cutting Off Reflected Vulnerability that it too uncomfortable to contemplate.

Female rape apologists and victim blamers often do it for broadly the same reason.

Yes.

This is a replay of so many other threads where we are told that these posters will simply continue to use female single sex spaces. Some tell us they ‘hear us’, but the result is still the same.

Respect is demanded and not given.

I didn't believe that I was vulnerable until I discovered that I was vulnerable. It changed my life. I now try to tell others but so many women are determined that nothing could happen.

Yes. We hear you.

this means that you will still continue to use female single sex spaces though, when there is not a neat solution.

That is still causing women and girls distress over your discomfort when you do have an alternative toilet to use. You just choose not to use it in those circumstances. However you try to parse this, this is the outcome of your decisions throughout your life. You need to own it and stop trying to tell women otherwise.

This is so astute.