Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

This! This! This!

ATW has tried very hard to present as the caring, considerate and reasonable face of the trans world but, in the absence of a 3rd facility, will force themself on women.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Alpha self-describes as 6ft+ and large built so is a particularly imposing presence.
I can’t imagine any woman’s inner alarm bells not going off in public toilets.

this means that you will still continue to use female single sex spaces though, when there is not a neat solution.

Transwomen don’t use female single sex spaces; they can’t, it is impossible. They create mixed sex spaces out of what were formally single sex spaces and use those, with no consideration of consent of the females whose single sex space they have destroyed.

This is true.

Coming back to the live debate. It was lovely to see Helen at LWS yesterday and congratulate her on how well she managed to make loads of sensible points despite the men waffling on about all sorts of nonsense.

It's really hard not to get distracted.

Cutting Off Reflected Vulnerability or even Cutting Off Experienced Vulnerability might explain a lot about Peter Tatchell.

I remember your mum’s experience. The reality is that it is a male person’s decision to take make their bodies resemble a female approximation. Just as the female transitioners tell us when they visit this board that they understand and fully take responsibility for their own decisions that mean that testosterone changes their body and voice. No one else’s decision. It is their’s alone.

The repercussions of which is that both these groups of people have the potential to cause harm and distress. The female transitioners who come and post their experiences on this board from time to time then explain that they would never choose to distress another female so they stay out. None of this conditional ‘we will stay out unless a convenient other option is missing’.

That is pure male entitlement.

From someone who has told us before how they are not a man. Yet, in their posts, that male socialisation is easily seen. But this continued ‘placate, placate, but I will still get my way’ tactic is very much one I associate as pure male entitlement. Because underlying it is the attitude, ‘what are you going to do to stop me!’

No. This is a scenario that is baked in to supreme entitlement and power. From someone who has spent pages telling us how accommodating and caring women are.

The male person who continues to use a female toilet because there is supposedly no other option, while telling women all the stereotypes that they believe we have is manipulative. I don’t give a fuck whether it is intentional or not. This is a fully developed adult making decisions that harm women.

It started with telling women on a feminist board how mean it was to not use Mulvaney’s pronouns. A misogynist act to tell women to be kind to another misogynist person who has mocked the realities faced by female people around the world and has made a fortune doing so.

The manipulation is very clear once you see it. The result is, effectively, abuse.

From someone who has told us before how they are not a man. Yet, in their posts, that male socialisation is easily seen. But this continued ‘placate, placate, but I will still get my way’ tactic is very much one I associate as pure male entitlement

It's not uncommon for people who assume privilege by default to consider asking for women's consent as a polite social fiction. The underlying menace of, "I asked nicely but we both know that your refusal has no teeth" with no need to voice anything beyond "nicely".

Yes. I think there's a lot of very desperate denial behind much of what Tatchell says. Plus a demonstration of how abused people have no boundaries.

Which is of course precisely and exactly treating him like a man (who wants you to not point that fact out)

Yes, indeed. Can you imagine a woman politely insisting that although she's sorry for causing distress, she will continue to use the male facilities if she chooses to?

Fred talks of being treated like a woman in the chippy

I get treated as a customer as my local chippies. I can’t say I have ever noticed them treating men and women differently. They are just very busy frying and serving customers.

For many men, the distress they cause is part of the thrill.

For others it is acceptable collateral to get what they class as their needs prioritised.

Oh.. you mean I might cause a girl or a woman distress ? No matter, I will just be quick, my needs come first, I am just peeing, if it causes you distress, you need to deal with it.

Didn’t we see this on the other thread? And as for those women who have religious needs, well … they just need to get over it. All said without recognising some of these women are actually some
of the most oppressed in society… a position that trans people have declared is also theirs with a mantra.

But hey… women. The most caring, accommodating and nurturing people apparently. And this poster shows us how very performative womanhood is with their posts. And how male people simply cannot understand the sex they aspire to emulate.

For many men, the distress they cause is part of the thrill.

Until people truly grasp this, we are not going to get anywhere.

Alpha could very easily say they were prepared to never set foot in a women's space ever again. But it seems Alpha won't say that. Why not?

This is the 'zero sum' bit, here.

Women say they don't want males in their spaces.

Not if the males are lovely
not if they are kind
not if they are very sad
not if they are dressed beautifully
not if they have had their genitals removed
not if they have gained 'breasts'
not if they are polite
not if they truly believe they have changed sex

No, thank you.

There is no 'middle ground' to - no men should use women's spaces. It's not 'extreme' or 'nasty' for a woman to say 'no'.

as for those women who have religious needs, well … they just need to get over it.

This. This is the key point. When do you ever hear a male person with TQ+ identities told 'they need to get over it'?

When would that ever be acceptable?

And yet this political view tells lesbians to learn to cope with straight sex rather than commit the evil crime of making a male person aware that they have not been percieved as a biological woman.

And women who are excluded from mixed sex spaces either need to abandon their faith, belief, family and culture; overcome their disability and forget their trauma.

This is the equivalent of telling a person who identifies are trans to abandon their transness, abandon their friends, forget their feelings and get over their anxieties and distress.

Women who want equality of consideration are not ever as cruel as the male people and their supporters are to women. They see this as ok when directed to women but not when directed to men.

Anyone who has not read 'why does he do that' by Lundy Bancroft needs a copy. He, after decades of working with men in the criminal justice system for serious abuse, identifies this seeing of different standards of entitlement and care being acceptable as the hall mark of an abuser and an abusive relationship .

And I most certainly don’t want to share a female single sex space with a male person who declares euphoria at ‘getting’ breasts at long last after waiting decades.

For all those who are not clear, it doesn’t matter if the motivation is ambiguous to you or not, this is fetishising female body parts. Breasts in this case. It is all part of the same aspect that we keep pointing out and some, such as the poster, deny.

The government consultation about toilets talks about creating fourth type (single sex, disabled and mixed sex). It then talks about how a new universal type (floor to ceiling doors and partitions) can be put in single sex toilets. It talked about this as a preferred option. I expect this is because men like Alpha will go in the ladies anyway which means all men are not allowed to be said no to. And you can never trust them not to film under the gap.

The very real safety issue for everyone, regardless of their sex or ‘gender’ is that the universal toilets are much more dangerous for vulnerable people - for those with long term medical conditions (heart disease, epilepsy, brain injuries) or people made vulnerable in that moment (sexual assault, strokes, miscarriages, drugs and alcohol). The laws could change soon, which didn’t need to change, due to this ideology. Because men won’t stay out. And these enclosed inaccessible spaces could become the norm in public.

when I say Alpha has been respectful I don't mean I agree with everything Alpha is saying or doing and I am very much on the gender critical side of the debate

However Alpha is still engaging with us and is not saying 'if you see a terf punch them in the fucking face' like Freda Wallace.

As I say we have been giving Alpha both barrels and yet Alpha has been calm and measured in responding and for that Alpha has my respect. That is all I am saying.

It is all about everyone else losing because some male people just cannot and will not cope with the word 'no' or have the capacity to respect and care about others when it conflicts with what they want. This is something toddlers figure out. That you cannot snatch and scream when someone else has something you want or won't give you what you want.

And the 'middle ground' stuff is just about how much everyone else must reasonably lose to these male people.

I mean take in the absolute evil of telling a lesbian she must 'learn to cope' with straight sex, because that is an example of the core of it. She must learn to tolerate submitting to unwanted, unenjoyed sex and provide her body to be penetrated to enable a male person's uninterrupted happy ego.

Her enjoyment of sex, even her consent, is not relevant. It's all about any price is worth it, her absolute dehumanisation and abuse is fine when the alternative is a male person having to realise the limits to their chosen fiction. And there are people who will throw word salad around all day to try and hide this and make it sound 'nice'. But this is in fact, in the cold hard light of day, what it is. It is abuse.

Edit for cross post

"Alpha is still engaging with us and is not saying 'if you see a terf punch them in the fucking face' like Freda Wallace"

It's kind of a low bar

Was just about to post the same @BezMills

It is.

Do you not see the sexism and abusive dynamic demonstrated in this?

That a male who has asked nicely to abuse and exclude women should get points and applause for not having sworn, shouted, made threats to beat up or kill, or refused to listen to women?

Well actually I don't think any actual listening is going on. How can I put it better?

Not flounced in response to women not co operating?