Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

Understood and accepted.

The difficulty with this particular discussion thread is when someone is calling their contribution to a debate an "artistic process", describing people as falling in to their trap, then sending tweets to anyone that mentions clothing which say "thank you for your participation".. it does make it an important part of the conversation.

BUT if more transwomen could step forward for decent conversations without any (self-stated) performative element, it would help considerably. There are indeed transwomen for whom this description doesn't apply and for whom the distress associated with gender dysphoria is real. Once upon a time they could slip by mostly unnoticed because society wasn't really aware of any of the impacts of someone having a gender identity (a belief in a feeling of an innate gender) at scale. However, that has changed and the impacts are very real: transwomen self-IDing in to women's spaces and "performing" (Malaga Airport) and children, particularly autistic and particularly adolescent girls, feeling confused about their non-conformity towards sex-based stereotypes and finding themselves locked in to a pathway to transition. The future numbers of detransitioners are utterly terrifying, given the scale at which this is happening.
So whilst I'm happy to understand and support your point, I remain angry at the impact of enforced belief. It helps nobody (except Malaga Airport fans).

As i've mentioned before: where are the voices of trans men in all of this?

Tell you what, Alpha, I'll agree to your request if you assure me you will no longer use women's spaces.

I find men in womens spaces distressing, so if we're asking for 'sensitivity' it seems fair to consider women's feelings, too.

My guess would be that their interest in engaging kicks in when/if they detransition.

Until that point any issues with women's boundaries or the impacts on children would presumably not hold much interest to them.

There are some exceptions: Buck Angel (speaks lots about the dangers to kids, although does also talk about Buck's Beaver and that gay men should try it), Marcus the Offensive Tranny (Marcus' chosen name,not my description).... and then of course Stephen Whittle and Freddy (can't remember surname - the transman who tried to get recognised as the father on Freddy's child's birth certificate after giving birth).
I'm sure there are more.

if we're asking for 'sensitivity' it seems fair to consider women's feelings, too.

Something which has been in very short supply in general to date.

Oh and Scott Newgent sometimes describes herself as a transman, sometimes as a woman (always as a mother and a lesbian). She also says pronoun choice doesn't matter.

Fred and Peter are both gay men, going from Freda's revelations about being fucked by men in sex clubs. I don't think Fred's Peter's type and his distaste was clear. Could he be, ever so slightly (whisper it) transphobic?

Thanks. I agree there's a real problem here with false positives, both in terms of confused young people and adult males with motives other than gender dysphoria claiming to be gender dysphoric. Obviously, my concern is how we can filter for these without making transition more difficult for people who do have gender dysphoria.

One point I would make is that the significant increase in the number of people coming out as trans may be due to more than one factor. I'm sure many people with gender dysphoria would have lived (miserable) lives without transitioning when the social barriers to doing so were much higher, so from that perspective it is a good thing these barriers have become lower.

But I don't really know we can do about the false positives.

I didn't realise Buck Angel had said that. It's disappointing given some of the sensible stuff Angel has said.

Freddie makes me furious. And really should have their GRC revoked (they do have one, i think?) because i understood it, to get a GRC you make a legal undertaking/promise to live in the acquired sex. Which for a man should not be allowed to include doing the ONE hugely massive female thing (have a child)

Are you saying @BonfireLady that a poster on this thread is:
"calling their contribution to a debate an "artistic process", describing people as falling in to their trap, then sending tweets to anyone that mentions clothing which say "thank you for your participation"?

I may be mistaken as I note that this is the only comment Alpha has responded out of all the previous responses to their "be kind" demand so I may have misunderstood your comment?

No, I think it was just a case of being irritated, and a bit concerned, about the way she was acting. As I would be in his position, to be honest, despite being a TRA.

Nope! One of the debaters in the room.

I'm not sure if the tweet describing the artistic process is in this thread or not.

I'm just juggling with Sunday roast stuff ATM bear with me. Screenshot and link on its way in case it's not up thread. Just need to whip up the Yorkshire puds mixture.

*I can't tell you how wonderful it is to have a real set of breasts if you've lived for several decades without one.

I think the best thing was the clothes. Walking into the office for the first time wearing a woman's suit and blouse made me feel amazing, liberated and powerful.*

Read what you wrote Alpha. If it's just nice clothes why not go for a beautifully tailored Saville Row suit? There is an element here of the clothes being women's clothes, this isn't 'I like looking nice', or :I enjoy dressing up' (I know a few, for want of the better word dandies, who wear amazing male clothes and I would say for them it's about nice clothes).

Mammals of the sea
Aquatic are they
Near grey rocks.

Thank you.

I have to say I have a lot of respect for alpha

You have been polite and measured in your responses despite the obvious difficulties. If only you could represent the trans community rather than the Freda's of the movement then maybe there would be more of a middle ground

Alpha uses women's spaces.

Alpha knows that this distresses women.

Alpha has ignored my request that Alpha stop doing this.

Debbie speaks for Debbie.

Out of curiosity, which public speaking/writing transgender advocate or activist does speak in a way that aligns with your own experience?

I’ll happily state that the nearest GC person to my own opinion/attitude is Helen Joyce (especially as we’ve both parented same sex attracted children).

Yes however in terms of engaging with us and being respectful in responses Alpha is going a better job than some others who call us Terfs and tell us to F off and die

It can't be easy to enter into a discussion where you know your views are in the minority and keep your cool.

There was an interesting discussion about this on another thread where this was acknowledged as an issue by Alpha and a proposed way forward was discussed. Not got time to grab it now as I'm just here for Freda link and screenshots that I've promised MrsO

@MrsOvertonsWindow
Here you go, as promised. Enjoy 😬

I've grabbed a few screenshots where Freda thanks posters for their participation (not feedback/comment) and explains a little more about Freda's work and artistic process.

https://twitter.com/Freda_Wa11ace/status/1717410863240417601?t=oy_pQoLfRnWlOSt7P3Jgng&s=19

How many ideas does FW think you need? Men are not women is one idea. It doesn't make it incorrect. I'm sure HJ also thinks cats are not dogs, dark isn't light and doorknobs aren't chairs (although FW may disagree on this one) but those ideas aren't relevant to a debate on trans ideology. I'm fairly certain Helen has all sorts of thoughts and ideas on all sorts of subjects but she was able to stick to the subject in hand rather than rambling on about what happens when she goes to the chippy.

And until this 'proposed way forward' happens, Alpha intends to keep using women's spaces, I presume.

That's not showing 'sensitivity'.

I've been subject to sexual assault in a woman's toilet, by a transwoman, when I was a teenager. I have no wish to ever encounter another man in a woman's toilet. It would be distressing, upsetting, triggering and frightening.

Alpha clearly doesn't care, and on the basis that Alpha would find men's toilets distressing, upsetting, triggering and frightening, has decided that I should suffer that instead of Alpha.

That's not fair or respectful. That's male supremacy.

That is a very powerful filter. On the trans threads people are always posting pictures of themselves looking very feminine and asking why they don't pass and get misgendered In public. It is because real life doesn't have a filter