Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

@MadderthanMorris the above was a reply to you.

What I'd really like to see is a discussion / debate just between Helen Joyce and Peter Tatchell.

Yes, I think there was an interesting discussion trying to happen but fucky the drunk clown kept shitting it up

Fucky the Drunk Clown has been noted as a potential new username. Thanks!

Depending on what you already know, it's either a one or two step process:

1. Discover you have developed an interest in learning about all the short codes for world airports. LAX in LA and JFK in New York are two of the most widely known. Here in the UK, we're pretty au fait with LHR, MAN (or airports in Scotland or Northern Ireland for those who live there) and so on.

2. When you've got all the codes that interest you, take the one that interests you most and Google it.

Depending what is known already, each of these steps could independently lead someone's eyes to pop out if taken to the extreme. One from boredom, the other from.. overwhelm.

https://debbiehayton.com/2022/05/16/my-autogynephilia-story/

Here's an article by TW Debbie Hayton about the Malaga Airport initials.

It is worth remembering that not all trans women experience this. Furthermore, it is incorrect to assume a trans woman does because she is (for example) attracted to women or has transitioned late in life.

Can I ask for some sensitivity around the way in which this particular subject is discussed as false assumptions can be distressing to individuals. Thanks 😀

It would be good if sensitivities around this subject could include referring to people by their correct sex. I, and many other women, find this use of our sex based language to refer to men offensive, misogynistic and distressing. Sadly MN forces us to put up with it.

Don’t think it’s a debate or discussion that can be had without someone’s sensibilities being impacted.

There is no middle ground- at least, not if middle ground requires no one’s feelings being hurt.

Nobody has said that all transsexuals are Malaga Airport types. So if you are not one of them, then this doesn't apply to you.

But I'm not prepared to show any sensitivity about males who pretend to be women for the purpose of sexual gratification. Why should we when what they are doing is so offensive to actual women?

I have dipped into this thread rather than reading the whole thing so sorry if this has already been dealt with, but: this Freda person seems like what would happen if we asked Chat GPT to join a debate as a transactivist. Do we we know that Freda is not AI?

@AlphaTransWoman Oh not all men huh? Why should women be silent when we are shown no sensitivity whatsoever by males invading our spaces and rights, we find that distressing, but we don't matter do we?!

It is virtually impossible to discuss the topic on here without being deleted so I think you'll be fine.

This is an excellent article that lays out how Gender Dysphoria/Gender Incongruence/Gender Identity Disorder is not one thing, but an umbrella term that describes a cluster of symptoms without identifying the cause:

https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

There really is no need to point out to Mumsnetters that not all Transitioners are motivated by the 3 letter acronym, I’ve already named several male transgender people on this thread who are much better community role models than FW or IW, although for debate purposes those transgender people tend to be far more amenable to the GC argument than their Malaga Airport counterparts.

Besides anything else, it’s obvious to anyone who spends more than 30 seconds thinking about it that whatever afflicts Jazz Jennings is nothing like whatever it is that Caitlyn Jenner suffers from.
If you add in the adhd/autistic/ROGD kids that many of us know in our own lives, it’s even more obvious that whatever form of Gender Dysphoria they are experiencing, it’s nothing whatsoever like either Jennings or Jenner.

GC people (and especially GC Feminists) are keen to separate out the types of GD and to discuss them fully, especially when it affects our own children.

However a certain subtype of mostly male) activist is very keen that we never ever do that, and they say that even suggesting that GD is the symptom of more than one underlying issue is tantamount to transphobia.

@AlphaTransWoman
Oh Alpha remember your questioning why women didn't like it when you made sweeping generalisations about how we think, what we like and how we act? Well I think you have just answered your own question - false assumptions can be distressing.
While I don't know you and I am certainly not in a position to diagnose anyone with anything might I suggest that you revisit your own posts about how having "a set" of boobs makes you feel and the sensation you experience when wearing a skirt suit and blouse to work and think about how they might suggest to the reader that while enjoying arriving at Malaga may not be your primary motivation they have a certain whiff of enjoying Spanish air travel about them.

Nicely put.

You can ask but the answer is no.

Men in our spaces, men wearing us as a costume, men insisting they are us, men telling us how to talk about our own biology and life experiences, men subjecting us to their fetishes and misogyny, is enormously distressing to millions and millions of women.

Just look at the state of this debate. Incredibly intelligent women have to waste their time debating with people like Freda and Peter who might as well have been replaced with talking parrots who would have made more intelligent arguments. All this bullshit is holding us back. It's holding humanity back.

Women can be loving and caring and empathic. But there is a limit and when we're done we're fucking done.

So no.

Women have been disrespected, humiliated, ignored, arrested, assaulted, raped and treated like third rate citizens.

The sensitivity train has left the station and is heading to It's Fucking Over, passing Hell's Fury and Fuck Right Off along the way.

Very nicely, also I cackled, sorry.

I suspect drafts 1-5 would have had me red carded faster than a two footed tackle at knee height. (Look at me an actual woman making a sporting analogy - it's almost like some of us don't conform to sexist stereo types).

quid pro quo, then, right?
that was a genuine article by a genuine Malaga type. Are we only to read things approved by you?

I've seen Mr Menno mentioned here and there, mostly on twitter, but i had a look at his channel.

I found this video very interesting not least because there is no sensationalism (IIRC). It is divided into 3 sections, and i find the first section in particular very interesting. I haven't seen part 2 but this helped distil and clarify some questions i have had in the pat.

Do we have someone here who is telling us 'not all men' whilst also telling us we can't call them men, whilst also saying he gets excited by dressing up in women's clothes, whilst also telling us not all men who dress up in women's clothes get excited at dressing up in women's clothes?

I mean, if you get excited at dressing up in women's clothes, that's a sure sign you are not a woman.

@AlisonDonut
No, I enjoy wearing nice clothes, the same way a lot of women do. I don't get "excited" in the manner you're alluding to. I have nothing against Debbie H, but she doesn't speak for trans women like me.

Sorry but no you can't. We'll be polite but other people here are in much more difficult situations than you are and we don't make a huge fuss about our own sensitivities. We come here expecting robust arguments.

You are welcome to come here and argue your position within the scope of the MN rules but your sensitivities aren't more important than other people being able to say clearly what they need to say.

If anything crosses the line into bullying etc you can report the post to the mods.

The fact that not all transwomen are AGP is well known to many of us. It is also important to remember that women are not psychic and so we do not know who is AGP and who is not, and that we cannot create safe respectful spaces for women by presuming that all (or even most) transwomen who choose to enter those spaces will not be AGP.

I've come to the point where I'm prepared to show only the same amount of consideration that's shown to me. And I'm not going first.