Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

Screenshots: India vs Freda.

I'm not sure that I've ever agreed with India before!

I've only caught snippets of the debate so far, but I ALMOST felt sorry for PT.

To be fair, India didn't call it out as fetish but certainly as inappropriate for the occasion. It's Freda's doubling down that joins the dots together.
I find myself in agreement with India that this really didn't do the trans community any favours. And just like I said above, it would be far better if a transwoman who had gender dysphoria took part instead. That way, it could have been about listening to each others' viewpoints while still accepting that sex and gender identity are not the same thing (and that not everyone believes in gender identity). Freda didn't listen to or respond to anything. Peter at least tried to respond to some of it, albeit incoherently.

“It ties in with wider views of women held by men; and with rape culture. ‘You love it really’ ‘I know you want it’ etc. Just a blanket refusal to accept that women aren’t ’an expectant mouth/gaping arsehole’ or whatever it is that disgusting man once said. Forgotten his name.”

waves at @Essenceofpetunia

And just like I said above, it would be far better if a transwoman who had gender dysphoria took part instead. That way, it could have been about listening to each others' viewpoints while still accepting that sex and gender identity are not the same thing

I don't think I've ever seen a trans rights activist who is a mild mannered man with gender dysphoria who doesn't want to trample on women's rights.

It's a mythical animal.

And really, that's the entire point. Someone like that wouldn't need to go onto a panel to oppose Helen Joyce. And if there was no one who wanted to oppose us, we could all just pack up and go home.

It's precisely because of the Fredas of this world that it's necessary at all.

And India doesn't realise, but India is exactly the same as Freda. India might not go on in fishnets, but India wants to tramp over women in exactly the same way that Freda does. Maybe more, because Freda doesn't insist that they are in fact a woman.

India boasts about going out of their way to violate women's boundaries, and insists that they are actually female with a cervix.

The both behave as batshit and misogynistically as each other.

India got India's 'breasts' out on national TV the way not alot of women would just get their breasts out on national TV.

It's all the same fetish.

India never does the trans community any favours either because IW also thinks that men who say they are women should be free to access women's sports / spaces and services and calls anyone who doesn't agree a Nazi. IW doesn't debate whilst drunk and flashing IW's cervix but the arguments amount to the same thing.

What trap have you got set then freddy fishnets that twitter/x exchange is hilarious😂

Oh I agree entirely. India would be just as pointless in a debate as Freda.
Until a transwoman can step forward who accepts that transwomen aren't women, there is no debate being had.

As demonstrated in this video, it's just some excellent points by Helen Joyce and Mark Glendenning (mostly Helen) and waffle in return.

And yes @AlisonDonut India very much seems to enjoy a display. But it would appear that India has standards. National TV during Big Brother whilst in the bedroom is fine, IEA as a venue is not. To be fair to India, India has a better grasp on picking when to do it.

Actually, I'll qualify that better:

Who accepts that not everyone believes that transwomen are women.

Not really, India offered to go on national telly and show everyone India's cervix.

At least Freda didn't do that! Quite.

Until a transwoman can step forward who accepts that transwomen aren't women, there is no debate being had.

But there are men like that. Miranda Yardley, the other one who looks a bit pixieish whose name I forget, Rose of Dawn, etc.

It's pointless them going on TV for a debate. Everyone will just be agreeing with each other.

it's not how nice they are, how dysphoric they feel, whether they pass, or if they perceive two different beliefs. That's all irrelevant.

It's whether or not they want to trample on women's rights.

That IS the debate.

Transwomen are either extremely deluded - believing its possible to change sex or have some kind of gendered soul - or they are deliberately subverting and transgressing boundaries.

There is no other possibility that I can see. Happy to be corrected.

Personally, it's my opinion, that it is 100% the latter. Unless it's kids in school being taught something different and buying it.

Aided and abetted by being online

Thought it might be useful to link to this thread about Peter Tatchell and his stated beliefs about the age of consent:

What did Peter Tatchell Really Say - Lily Maynard | Mumsnet

I think there is a cohort, small in the west, that is not unlike some of the ladyboy type in some other countries. They are usually gay men who in their development as teens take on a kind of identification with cultural sex markers that are normally adopted by women looking to be attractive to men. things like make up or dresses etc. They don't think they are really women, and it's not about transgression. It's about what men in the culture seem to find sexually appealing.

There is a vanishingly small
number of male transitioners who accept that they are men with lady-feels and have no business in female single sex spaces and are willing to say so in public.

Miranda Yardley, Fionne Orlander, Corinna Cohen. Then there are a small number of male transitioners who won’t quite give up the ladies lavs but who realise they have no place in women’s sports
or prisons and who are concerned about kids, Leanne Mills, Blair White, Debbie Hayton, Rose of Dawn, that
sweet trans MtF YouTuber who
popper up recently (Alex something).

Way more Freda’s and India’s and Katy’s out there than there are Mirandas, sadly.

Does India not know that once you call people Nazis it's game over, you've lost the debate?

Yep.

If there is any debate to be had on women's spaces, it's with the Blaire White et al contingent.

But they and the Miranda Yardley et al contingent can also do a lot to help with other impacts of gender identity, such as children being pulled towards transition as the answer to their distress. It's slow going but I really do think that the public is waking up to the harms being done here.

This is going on one direction. Once people peak, they don't go backwards.
Malaga Airport fans are persistent and vocal but none of them help their own cause and all of them bring far more sunlight each time they speak/act. I do have sympathy for transwomen with gender dysphoria and would support third spaces. But no transwomen belong in women's spaces at all.

Apparently Freda has blocked India on Twitter/X.

I'm not sure that's true, because we have very little accurate follow up information about transitioners. There is an immeasurable but probably very large number of people out there living as the opposite sex and just wanting to get on with their lives in peace, who have no interest in the politics of it at all.

Please could someone enlighten me on what the Málaga Airport reference means?

No idea.

you’ve missed half my point!

‘And are willing to say so in public’

The transsexuals you describe are not going to join the public debate.